CHILD SNATCHING. A MORAL MINEFIELD
UPDATE – Monday 8 October, 2012
The four Italian sisters at the centre of an international dispute between their Italian father and the Australian mother who absconded with them have arrived back in Italy.
But emotional scenes are ongoing, with the Australian media reporting today that two of the girls, aged between nine and 15, tried to escape from their grandmother’s property in Tuscany and also begged reporters for help.
According to the Daily Telegraph, the father also spoke to the assembled media, asked for “calm” and said, through an interpreter: ”I am destroyed because my daughters remain not well.” He also criticised the length of time it took – over two years – for the court to make its ruling that the girls should be returned to Italy.
“Because all that time has passed, it has created all this stress for the girls.”
Of the girls’ mother, he said: “I hope she comes here in peace. That is my wish. If she continues with the war and the struggles, it’s not going to help anything.”
According to Fairfax Media, a Facebook post by someone related to the family said: “The father and the family understand that it will require patience to re-establish the harmony the girls once experienced in Italy, and reverse the painful stresses they have endured in the last two years.”
LUCY CLARK looked into this issue last week…
Years ago I interviewed a man who snatched small children for a living.
He was as private detective in Brisbane, and a large part of his work was retrieving Australian children who had been abducted by one of their parents and taken overseas.
Just like the four Italian girls brought to Australia two years ago by their Australian mother, except in reverse.
The four Italian girls ‘abducted’ by their father. Photograph via The Brisbane Times.
By now most of you will have witnessed horribly distressing scenes of a mother having to watch as her traumatised and crying daughters were dragged onto an international flight in Brisbane after a court ruled that they must be returned to their Italian father and their homeland.
The mother had brought her girls to her homeland for a month’s holiday, and then failed to return, as was her legal obligation. In doing so, she contravened the Hague Convention on International Child Abduction.
Abduction is a strong word. And we might question its use in relation to a mother making a decision about where she wants to live with her children, but that’s what it is.
This is part of what I wrote after my Daily Telegraph interview with Keith Schafferius, the now retired private detective who was known in intelligence circles as “The Retriever.”
Every year in Australia, about 90 parents come home from work one day, or show up for a custody visit one weekend, or go to pick their kids up from kindy, to discover that their co-parent has absconded with their children and left the country.
The remaining parent, or the “left-behind parent” as they have come to be known, is suddenly and sickeningly plunged into emotional despair. Where are their children? Will they ever see them again? Where do they turn while their heads and hearts are spinning?
This is how the Italian father of the four girls would have felt when it became clear to him that his children would not be returning to Italy. He took legal action (rather than hiring a “retriever” for quicker results) and, more than two years later, justice has been served.
But at what cost to those girls?
And has their mother acted in their best interests? Has the court acted in their best interests? It must be said that there is no evidence that the father in this case is anything other than a loving father who just wants his girls back.
This is a dangerous moral minefield and one that Keith Schafferius was happy to walk into, driven by a strong sense of justice. When he decided to “re-abduct” a child who had been taken overseas by a parent, he was effectively taking a firm moral stance
within the constantly shifting highly emotional landscape of marital breakdown and custody battles.
He would do background checks on both parents, saying: “morally I like to think – I need to know in my own mind – that I’m doing the right thing by these children”.
He abhorred the practice of parents effectively kidnapping their own children, believing that many estranged parents put their own “spiteful” need for revenge before the essential rights of their children to know, and have relationships with, both their parents.
The case of the four Italian sisters (not Aussie sisters, as some headlines keep saying) is an extreme one. And extremely upsetting too, on all fronts. No-one could deny this mother’s pain; too much of it seems to have been recorded by television cameras.
The best interests of the child is, and always must be, at the centre of any custody dispute, yet how often do we see parents putting their needs first?
We’d love to hear what you think about this issue.
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54 Responses to this article
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Chantelle October 5, 2012
I think the thing that has wound me up about this case is that the AFP sent ten MALE officers to “retrieve” the four GIRLS.
The image of two MALE officers pinning a young, crying, upset, GIRL to the ground while she screamed at them that they were hurting her was, to me, a sign of a very bad decision made in the way to handle the situation.
Could they not have sent a psychologist? A counsellor? Female agents?
Instead, what they have effectively done in their actions, has been to turn these girls’ opinions of these men. Instead, effectively, these girls will remember that their father is responsible for them being dragged kicking and screaming by a gang of men.
Was there any consideration to how traumatic this course of action would be on those young girls?
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JessB October 5, 2012
@Chantelle, that’s an interesting point of view.
I have to admit, I was stunned that their mother didn’t travel with them, and assumed it was because she was prohibited from doing so. Instead, it seems that she has stated she will not be returning to Italy – so her own desires trumped the orders of the court and the welfare of her daughters. I think the girls would have been calmer if she had been travelling with them.
However, I understand that there were originally 5 children, and one daughter died, and I think that whenever there is a death in the family, rational thought and emotional stabily can be severely affected, so I’m trying not to judge.
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Mel October 5, 2012
This is what troubled me the most as well . I asked my husband sitting next to me ” Why are they treating them like criminals?” I found it quite hard to watch and still don’t understand why they weren’t treated with the empathy that children in such a horrible situation deserve. I really think it needs to be addressed and that a response from the Federal Police should be sought.
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Heather Tyler October 5, 2012
I also interviewed Keith about his book. What a great guy. It really struck a chord with me. The point missing from this Italian tragedy: Did the children have a say about what they wanted? Did the courts ask? What are THEIR rights under the International Convention of the Rights of the Child? Or perhaps the screaming and kicking distraught girls said it all when it was too late. This was a forced removal of the most shocking kind. They didn’t want to be parted from their mother. The parents really should try and work this out so their children aren’t torn and traumatised any further by this tug-of-love war.
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janiemay October 5, 2012
This is such a personal, emotive situation. Legally, the mother has absolutely done the wrong thing and until we know the full story from the Italian side of things, it’s really hard to make a judgement call. From my reading of it, the mother and father had shared custody in Italy, the country of the girls birth. When the mother decided she wanted to return to Australia, she just took them. We have the Hague convention for a reason, let’s see how Australia would feel about it if we were reading about an Italian mother taking the children back to Italy after they’d lived here all their lives. There will never be a right or wrong side to this story, just 6 really unhappy people.
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Bernadette October 5, 2012
I totally agree with Chantelle. There should be some specific protocols to help deal with such situations. For example, I am sure the mother was never invited to accompany her daughters to the airport and help calm them. I doubt anyone was in gear for such an abrupt removal after the court orders were made. A night to say good-bye to their mum and permission for her to go with them to the departure lounge at the airport might have made a difference too. As Chantelle said, could they not have sent in a psychologist or counsellor?
As someone who has worked in the legal system I was stunned to see all those male officers with only a distant female voice (in the video clip) taking an aggressive approach in speaking to the children about what they were doing to them.
There are no winners in cases involving the Hague Convention and international law. We expect children removed from Australia without a parent’s consent to be returned here and that is why Australia signed an agreement with many other countries to do the same. However, how it is achieved on a practical rather than legal level is a real concern.
Will these children be now so traumatised by the manner of their removal that they blame the father and permanently fracture what little (if any) there was of that relationship? I am not sure whether in this particular case the previous Italian court orders for shared custody can resume or whether there really has to be a new decision made. If these four girls refuse to live with the father what then? I hope for their sake the mother can go back to Italy, without fear of prosecution, to be with them. I think the father loses out in this case too, by the manner in which the AFP dealt with the children
It surely does not help children for any parent to be jailed for breaching court orders in most cases. The best interests of the child should be factored into these situations.
There is no easy answer. We’ve seen the sad stories of children taken from parents in Australia and the success stories of children snatched back from the countries they were taken to as well as those who are legally returned to Australia. These kids were returned for an Italian court to decide on what is to happen next. However it would be good if the father drops his case over there.
No matter what the law, there should be a better way to deal with children in the court system. In this particular case the judge sought an undertaking from the father that he would not seek criminal proceedings against the mother and only then did the judge order the children’s return. It seems the judge could have also got some assurances as to how sensitively the children would be dealt with in the manner of their return. It might not be legally binding on the AFP but I’ve seen judges and magistrates seek assurances and undertakings from government officials or police before making court orders. Did the judge not think to do that in this situation? Was he more focussed on the specifics of international law rather than the wellbeing of the children?
It is definitely time for some sensitive protocols for these situations. Using male officers to “apprehend”children, should not be one of them in most circumstances. I imagine the police officers hated their role on that particular night anyway. It is time for some reform in the practices used by the authorities that deal directly with the children during or after court orders are made. Efforts to minimise the trauma to the children should be at the foremost of everyone’s minds in dealing with these cases. Judges can also play a role in shaping such reforms by obtaining information before making court orders for children to be removed from parents, whether they be staying in Australia with the other parent or being moved to another country.
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Alice Shaw October 5, 2012
I have very strong opinions on this case but they are based on what I’ve read in the media and I’m sure there’s more to it than has been released to the general public so I will restrain myself when commenting here.
What I will say is that four young girls, dragged kicking and screaming by large male police officers, who told them they were under arrest, is a disgusting display of brutality. As already stated, female counsellors or social workers should have been sent to support the children to follow through with their return to Italy.
As for the mother travelling with them, there has been some discussion around her fear of being criminally prosecuted if she goes to Italy and I wonder if she decided to try and make sure she could do so travel without being arrested as soon as she set foot on Italian soil. Surely that would be just as traumatic for those children to witness.
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Sam October 8, 2012
Of course you have strong opinions. I bet you have been in the same situation as this mother and you also felt that you were hard done by.
Let me guess, your ex wanted shared custody and you fought him because you are one of those women who think only someone with a vagina can be a proper parent.
The woman BROKE THE LAW, she did the wrong thing. Why should the father be denied his children just because the mother doesn’t want to share?
It is obvious that the mother in this case tried every tactic to get her own way, including accusing the father of abuse, which was thrown out in the court hearings.
If the mother really wanted what was best for the girls she would have done the right thing by them, instead she only did what was best for her.
That is the definition of a selfish parent.
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Mike October 12, 2012
Oh please – if it were the father who abducted the children there would be universal condemnation of him.
The fact that it is the mother who did the kidnapping is no less bad.
The mum had 2 years to poison her kids against their father. It wouldn’t have mattered if they used female AFP officers, the kids would have still been taken kicking and screaming because they didn’t want to go, thanks to their mother,
The matter has been adjudicated in Italy and the mother chose to break the law. She should have been arrested here and extradited back to Italy.
If we allow children to stay in the country they have been abducted to, then it creates a massive incentive for a parent to take their kids out of the country as it’s like as long as you succeed in tranferring the kids to another country, you can stay there.
How many divorced mothers here would be happy with their ex taking the kids from Australia to another country without their consent.
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Andrew October 5, 2012
There is a lot to be said, and it all has been by others who are far better thinkers and writers than myself. How the girls’ departure was handled by authorities does not appear to be a class act. I think we can trust that the judge thought long and hard about the case and made a decision that may not played out well on tv, but was a correct decision.
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B.H. October 5, 2012
I read the mother just did not have the money to get her to Italy. If she doesn’t have the money then she doesn’t have it. Not much she can do.
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Gwen October 6, 2012
I have to say that in my therapy work it is common to see parents unable to clearly separate their own interests as aggrieved distressed adults from the emotional and developmental needs of their children. When making arrangements for their chidren (parenting plans, visiting schedules etc.) it often seems to be an adversarial contest which leads to apparent “winners” and “losers” as each parent battles to get their own way, rather than a genuine co-operative effort to arrive at a consensus which focusses on the children.
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Jenny October 6, 2012
This is a situation which should not have been allowed to happen. Due to the mother’s very unwise decision to keep her children in Australia a train of events has been set in place which can only result in serious harm to the ones she loves most. I cannot begin to imagine the father’s distress at the prospect of losing all his children, and he will now be faced with the monumental task of winning back their trust and love. I can’t imagine that will be easy, and there will be some difficult behavioural issues to come from very disturbed girls whose loyalties have been thoroughly confused. I see the mother’s only option is to return to Italy – if she doesn’t choose to do so then she is effectively abandoning her children. I acknowledge that it would be difficult for her to return, but what mother wouldn’t do anything in her power for her children? When they are older, other options can be taken – as legal adults the girls will be able to make their own decisions as to where and with whom they will live.
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Robyn October 6, 2012
There are two issues here. First the Hague Convention. Second, the handling of the removal by the Australian authorities.
The mother did the wrong thing removing the children. As janiemay said, we have the Hague Convention for a reason. As I am not a lawyer, I don’t know but would be interested to know, has Heather Tyler asked, the children’s rights under that specific convention.
The court, I believe, made the right judgement given the facts of the case. I’ve personally been through meeting the requirements of the Hague Convention to relocate children.
How Australia handled the removal was not appropriate at all if the media reports are accurate. Female officers would certainly have been a much better option and I am surprised it seems this was not the option adopted in this case.
Overall, an extremely sad case. I just hope the girls receive some counselling in Italy to help them deal with the trauma of their removal from Australia.
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Leesa October 6, 2012
Dear future parents
If you decide to have a child please understand that until they are adults you have committed to putting their needs ahead of your own. To understand these needs study the developmental needs of children. It is not always easy, it requires at times immense sacrifice but if you are not willing to make this committment do not have children! -
Betty Taylor October 6, 2012
I think the last line ..”The best interests of the child is, and always must be, at the centre of any custody dispute” is the critical point. I am not convinced that the court’s decision and subsequent deportation of the girls was “in their best interest”. The girls had repeatedly said that they did not want to 1. Return to Italy 2. Live with their father. It would seem their pleas fell on deaf ears. The court took the view they were “brain washed by their mother”. The older girls especially, are old enough to know their own mind and I believe the events witnessed at Brisbane airport were a visual display of the trauma they were experiencing. Hardly the behavior of children excited to see their father. The best interests of the child should consider both the physical and emotional safety of children. European courts do this far better than Australia and I believe we have ample room for improvement. There is the Hague Convention but their is also the UN Convention on the rights of the child
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Me October 6, 2012
Would people feel differently if an Italian father had taken Australian born children back to Italy for 2 years?
It appears to me that the mother did little to calm her children once the case was decided and probably added to their distress.
Perhaps there were no female officers available/willing to do the job at short notice.
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Kaffiy October 6, 2012
Well said Leesa.
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Ross October 7, 2012
Mother acted inconsistent with the Hague Convention, to meet her own needs. Those needs should not be rewarded by letting the children live in Australia – the Court got it right.
There was shared custody, and father trusted mother by supporting the travel to Australia, yet the father was let down. How could the actions of the mother be in the best interests of the daughters? Father had good relationship with daughters before the mother refused to return to Italy.
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Mary lamb October 7, 2012
From what I’ve read in the media,the four girls’ mother married the father when she was just 16 and they had five children! After the death of one of their child the father became distant towards his wife and daughters! As an Australian with Italian heritage and have visited Italy on many occasions,the fact is,the men are still in charge of the family and as one of my uncles,homily said to his wife,’you ever leave me,you’ll never see the children again’! One cannot blame the mother! If we had witnessed such mishandling by authorities in any other country in regards to the children,we would all be shocked but it happened here,in our civilized society of Australia! A parent can go to jail for giving their child a spanking yet these girls were dragged,pushed almost kidnapped by the very people who shld be protecting them! I’m absolutely disgusted and hope all of Australia get behind these young girls and have them returned to their rightful home! The latest incident with two older girls yelling & pleading with Aussie journalists to help them has made me want to hop onto a plane and release the girls from their prison! The younger two are staying elsewhere! The father is a manipulator who had his ego hurt by his wife when she dare take her daughters to Australia where the girls will prosper with great education,medical facilities,future careers whereas Italy’s unemployment is getting worse everyday and the country is near bankruptcy-where wld u prefer to raise yr children????
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rob October 7, 2012
@Mary lamb – with respect, I have never read an opinion that is so misguided, factually incorrect, and emotive, which in the end seems to support the breaking of the law. What next – okay for me to nab my nephew and flee to Canada because his parents are “manipulators” and “he will receive better health care and education” ? – of course not.
The court applied the law and decided that it’s in the daughters best interests for them to pick up their life in Italy with their father (ie: the life they had before the mother refused to return). There are consequences for one’s actions and many people are experiencing them – mainly due to the actions of the mother. The mother might genuinely believe that she is acting in the best interests of her daughters – sadly she is not.
My hope is that a shared custody arrangement can be reestablished and all four can establish a reasonable degree of happiness and stability. Cool heads will need to prevail if that’s to have a chance.
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Kris October 7, 2012
An Italian Aunt allegedly commented that she (the girls Mother) chose to leave her marriage,her husband,Italy….
The couple were already divorced.Perhaps the divorce (and the X Wife) was not accepted or treated very well?Italy has quite a large gender equality gap (above that of Bangladesh I believe.As a divorced, foreigner and a female (who married young) ,living in a property owned by her X husband or his family things may have been very difficult.Here we here women talk about changing locks to feel safe,making official reports of all incidents,getting AVO’s ,moving house etc if necessary for them and their children to feel and be safe (there is assistance to do all of these things).We recognise that control can equal abuse.
So many people are saying the girls were coached,that they behaved ‘badly’.I had a physically and emotionally abusive,controlling,lying Father ‘try’ to lock my Mother out of our Family home…police didn’t want to know (aka ‘nothing much could be proven ‘until’ physical damage showed…I was a well adjusted,responsible 14 yr old who did well at school and had a part time job…I spat,kicked and imagined killing my Father for the pain her caused and was causing myself,my siblings and my Mother.The thought of being with him and not seeing my mother terrified me ,for my sake,my siblings sake and my Mothers sake.My emotional reaction was strong and it was very real.So too was the fear of talking about how my Father treated us! Taking those girls away from their mother did appear to cause them extreme emotional pain.My heart breaks for the Mother and the girls.The revelations of the support given to the family and statements from social workers etc prior to them coming here gives more reason for concern in my opinion.I can well understand the Mothers fears for her Children and herself in Italy.Very Very Sad. -
Kris October 8, 2012
Media has alleged that “Neighbours were hesitant to talk about the family,with one saying many relatives lived on the large estate”
Could that explain a few things …even why witnesses and evidence may not have been provided when needed…and/or why some evidence may not exist? Power,money ,position in society,culture ?
The Father has stated “My daughters think the Australian near them today will ‘save them’ .But that is not reality”
I’d imagine if they were desperate to see and be with their Mum and other Sisters they may try anything.
Father blames the slow moving judicial system for the girls distress ?????
Does he not consider that the girls have real feelings and are reacting to being made to live with him?He said the younger girls or to use his words the ‘little ones’ are more calm”
saying “They didn’t say anything”Does their silence mean that they are OK ?
A City Official told the Courier Mail “It could be or it could not be” when questioned about the chances of prosecution”
(of the Mother)The girls aren’t together ? and now talks of the possible need for Foster Care for the eldest two ?
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susan October 8, 2012
Thanks for the link gogirl, made interesting reading.
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Ross October 8, 2012
People – the mother started all this. She broke the law and therefore placed her children and their father in a very sad predicament. How’s that in any one’s best interests?
Would not a loving father do everything lawful to be united with his children. This is what he has done.
Kris – look up the words “anecdotal” and “biased”….
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Kris October 8, 2012
A loving Father and/or Mother would in my opinion allow his children to live with the parent they wish to live with.They would consider their children’s wishes,emotional and physical well being and put that before all else… ALWAYS.
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Rita October 8, 2012
The mother showed incredibly poor judgement in thinking she could just not return the girls to Italy. If you have children, and you separate from your spouse, even if you despise your spouse, you have a responsibility to your children to keep them out of it and not try to influence their relationship with the other parent. It’s emotional abuse to try to make them think what you want them to think about their other parent. The Family Court judge found that it was likely the children here had been coached, given their sudden change of opinion from loving their home in Italy to being terrified of it. Very sad. I had a good friend when I was 10-14 whose parents did something like this. My friend lived with her mother after her parents separated and she became very disturbed and confused about her relationship with her father (where previously she was a “tomboy” personality who loved doing activities with her dad like fishing, sports, tinkering with car engines, etc) because her mother continually badmouthed her former partner and tried to convince her that her father didn’t want to see her anymore and so on. It was very very sad. By the time I moved away from our town when we were both 14 she had become severely anxious and clingy towards her mother – rather like the Italian girls. We wrote a few letters to each other over the next few years and the last couple, when we were 18, she said she had come to despise her mother and was going to go to uni on the other side of the country to get away from her.
Parents, please don’t do this to your children. Get counseling the moment you think of involving your kids in your dispute with your spouse. It will probably end up backfiring on you with your kids hating you once they’re old enough to realise what you’ve done. All to get “revenge” on your ex. Horrible.
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Nikki @ Styling You October 8, 2012
I live where these girls have lived for the last two years – two of them attended my youngest’s primary school. The community is trying to raise funds for the mother to return to Italy.
How they were taken from their suburban home is atrocious but as the mother of two children, whom I share custody with with their dad, I don’t think keeping them from their father was a good idea either.
I don’t think either parent has really put the kids first in all of this.
The two eldest girls are of an age under Australian law where they can decide who they want to live with – I’m surprised that was not taken into consideration by the courts.
It’s a sad, sad situation.
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Miss Chelsea October 8, 2012
I think we’re all missing the point here. That is that the Hague Convention is a hopelessly blunt instrument for dealing with these problems. In Australian Family Law, the child’s best interests are paramount and their views are to be taken into account by the use of an independent lawyer. This means that children are often – unfairly at the time – kept with the parent that they want to be with. It’s deemed to be less traumatic for them.
I don’t have time to read the judgment today, but it seems this hasn’t happened under the Hague Convention.
Can I propose an alternative? That is, to take the children into an independent place for a “holiday” with some social workers and an independent lawyer, who can ascertain what their real feelings are and advise them as to their rights and their parents’ legal responsibilities. If they are still adamant that they want to stay, let them stay. It will all work itself out when they are adults and can understand and decide what really happened.
I know it seems sexist, but I believe it to be true: tearing daughters away from a loving mother at that time of life should be a last resort saved for protecting children’s physical and psychological welfare.
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Miss Chelsea October 8, 2012
I think we’re all missing the point here. That is that the Hague Convention is a hopelessly blunt instrument for dealing with these problems. In Australian Family Law, the child’s best interests are paramount and their views are to be taken into account by the use of an independent lawyer. This means that children are often – unfairly at the time – kept with the parent that they want to be with. It’s deemed to be less traumatic for them.
I don’t have time to read the judgment today, but it seems this hasn’t happened under the Hague Convention.
Can I propose an alternative? That is, to take the children into an independent place for a “holiday” with some social workers and an independent lawyer, who can ascertain what their real feelings are and advise them as to their rights and their parents’ legal responsibilities. If they are still adamant that they want to stay, let them stay. It will all work itself out when they are adults and can understand and decide what really happened.
I know it seems sexist, but I believe it to be true: tearing daughters away from a loving mother at that time of life should be a last resort saved for protecting children’s physical and psychological welfare.
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Tracy October 8, 2012
There are many good points made by people here. My basic view is that children are in many ways better off with their mothers. It is where these girls want to be.
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Panda October 8, 2012
Thanks for the link gogirl. The perspective of the judge appears to have escaped the notice of mainstream media in the rush to sell magazine copies and potential ‘movie deals’ (as quoted by the girls maternal grandmother)
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Kris October 8, 2012
So much more seems so not right after reading
The Convention of the Rights of the Child . -
Pete October 8, 2012
You miss the point Tracy. The children were nabbed by their mother and did not see their Father for years – is it any wonder that they wish to remain with their mother….
The mother broke the shared custody arrangements and the law – great role model for her girls – NOT.
The Court got it right – the media and ill informed public outcry is a distraction and 100% irrelevant.
I have seen custody disputes go very sour and guess what – it is often the mother who let’ everyone down by not being home when the father is scheduled to collect the kids, chopping and changing custody arrangements so the Father can’t plan, and even making allegations of abuse.
Yes your view is very basic (your description not mine).
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the*sparrow October 8, 2012
Does anyone know at what age the girls are deemed old enough to legally make up their own minds where they will live?
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Wendy October 8, 2012
A very sad situation for any parent or child. If Australia supports the Hague Convention then that must be taken into account. If as it stands the Hague Convention is not useful or working as planned, then our Govt needs to take a stand on this .This situation could have been solved by ours or the Italian Government by simply bringing the families all together and discussing the issues. An unbiased team of Legal representatives , Child safety officers,Health care officers, etc could have listened and made a decision that ensured the children’s rights were best addressed.This type of custody issue happens way too often, and the children are the ones who suffer the most.
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Jennie October 8, 2012
As difficult as it is, we must uphold the Hague Convention. If we don’t, it makes a mockery of the law and also means that many more parents will simply ‘steal’ their children away to another country, hoping that if they can then delay court proceedings long enough for the kids to want to remain in the new country, then their wishes will be upheld. This simply can’t happen in a just society – although it is absolutely heartbreaking for the children, the victims.
I believe that the person who has behaved despicably in this affair is the mother. Not only did she ‘steal’ her children from where they were born, but it appears that she incited the children to struggle and protest when they were taken back to Italy. She could have calmed them down and encouraged them to accept the court’s decision and behave with dignity, and they (most probably) would have obeyed her and trusted her judgement. Even if they didn’t want to go back, they would have done so without fear or manhandling – and learned that all of us have to do things we don’t want to do, and usually such things are not as bad as they first seem! However, she encouraged them to struggle and fight, and how scary must the whole thing have been for them!
No winners, lots of losers here.
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Jennie October 8, 2012
As difficult as it is, we must uphold the Hague Convention. If we don’t, it makes a mockery of the law and also means that many more parents will simply ‘steal’ their children away to another country, hoping that if they can then delay court proceedings long enough for the kids to want to remain in the new country, then their wishes will be upheld. This simply can’t happen in a just society – although it is absolutely heartbreaking for the children, the victims.
I believe that the person who has behaved despicably in this affair is the mother. Not only did she ‘steal’ her children from where they were born, but it appears that she incited the children to struggle and protest when they were taken back to Italy. She could have calmed them down and encouraged them to accept the court’s decision and behave with dignity, and they (most probably) would have obeyed her and trusted her judgement. Even if they didn’t want to go back, they would have done so without fear or manhandling – and learned that all of us have to do things we don’t want to do, and usually such things are not as bad as they first seem! However, she encouraged them to struggle and fight, and how scary must the whole thing have been for them!
No winners, lots of losers here.
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Kris October 8, 2012
The Hague convention has exceptions .
It also has guidelines .The Children have rights and they (the children) should be the main consideration.
It seems that their words were dismissed on the basis that they were coached.Is that not an assumption?
Is it not possible (especially given the Italian culture) that the girls did not want to hurt their father (or perhaps bring shame on him and/or his family) by saying too much….at least in the beginning .Has an official Authority in Italy decided that the best interest for the girls is to be separated from each other and not be permitted to speak to their mother ? Is anyone overseeing/following the guidelines for children removed under the Hague convention ?
are the older girls needing to be locked indoors ?
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Sam October 8, 2012
The mother should have been the adult in the situation and spoken to the girls in a way that would have calmed them down. What was the point of her display she put on at the airport?
She should have told the girls to go on the plane. That she would do everything she could to come see them soon and that they would be ok.
He is their father and obviously loves them as he has fought so hard and so long to have them returned to him after they were ILLEGALLY taken by the mother.
She should have put her feelings aside to reassure her children, instead she thought only of herself and made sure to create a scene that would upset the girls.
She obviously only wanted the media to see one side of the situation and she has been a master of manipulation since the first day she took the story to the media.
I can not see anyone giving this much airtime if it was in reverse and an Italian father kidnapped his kids from Australia and the mother tried to get them back.
The double standard by the Australia media is staggering as is the responses from women on here who state “they just know the girls should have been allowed to stay with the mum”
They just know because they have obviously been in a situation where their own ex-husbands also fought for shared custody and the same women fought for sole custody because they think anyone with a vagina is a better parent.
It is time that the world stopped thinking that children automatically should go with the mother.Women can be just as abuse and just as bad a parent as a man can be. EVERY case needs to be looked at on its merits.
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Kris October 8, 2012
Sam, what has happened has happened.The girls mother was not given the opportunity to say goodbye to her children nor them to her.
I am thinking as I think most should ,that is about the children.If I was their Father I would not have forced something they so obviously did not want.They should not be treated as ‘unfeeling,unthinking’ possessions .It should not be about what either parent wants but what the children want and what is best for them. I’ve been a child and for parents (or anyone else) to make it all about them is wrong and unfair.It denies the children their rights.
As a parent I would do anything to keep my children safe.IF they were in danger or I myself was (for example) I did not have the money or the power/the position or the right to do so where I was ..I would do whatever I had to do to ensure that they were safe.
If I knew that they would be unsafe and/or traumatized (and could see and hear that) and there was nothing I could do to keep them safe or to know that they were safe I would most likely not be able to give them faith and hope I didn’t feel myself .Most likely I would try to remain calm..but who knows how one may react when the extreme happens (until or unless it happens to you).
These girls are not babies.It is not or should not be about either of the parents.
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Jackson October 9, 2012
Hi Kris,
I am wondering if you have read the actual judgement? Someone further up left a link.
I thought the same as you until I read ALL the court info.
Now I am totally 100% on the side of the father. If you read the judgement you will see that the girls originally wanted to go back to Italy. The ONLY home they had ever known. It was ONLY after the mothers family were in their ear for 2 years that they suddenly developed a fear of their father and of returning to Italy.
The father even agred to pay the mothers way back to Italy and give her over 8000 euro to help her get settled again so her claims that she cant affiord it are untrue.
The judge took all this into consideration and that is why he ruled as he did.
It is interesting how a view can change when you have all the facts
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Jaki N October 9, 2012
What a terrible situation for all involved! The girls, parents, family members and the AFP officers stuck in the middle of having to do their duty. Maybe the AFP guidelines can be reviewed so more compassionate “tactics” are considered.
What upset me as a parent was to observe the mother’s demeanour which did nothing to alleviate her daughters’ distress. I feel strongly that a calm & rational manner (in an obviously emotionally charged situation) would have been in the best interests for her children. Parenting is tough at the best of times and in the worst of times we need to forgo immediate gratification/satisfaction of our needs for the long term emotional benefits to our children. I hope this family eventually finds peace & happiness in measure for them all. -
Kris October 9, 2012
Jackson, I am reluctant to click on links.I don’t know that we know all the facts.In relation to what you said that the girls expressed re which Country they want to live in)
was it all of the girls saying that ?
Did the questions or answers have certain conditions ?
ie Did they want to live in Italy with their Mother and/or Father with shared care arrangements (as they previously had)or
were they wanting to live in Italy with their Father OR Mother (with either parent having sole custody/care?)
was their Mother living in Australia and them in Italy?
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Kris October 9, 2012
or did they want to live in Italy with someone else all together ?
or
with their parents happily married or happily separated and well and happy and managing financially ?Was it merely a desire to live in Italy..nothing more said or explained of to how they would like it to be or how it could be?
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Sam October 9, 2012
Kris, the link takes you directly to the official court documents of the case. it is basically the whole report from the judge explaining why he ruled as he did.
The link takes you to a government site. It is not spam and it is safe.
All your questions above are answered in the report.
i hope you read it.
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Trinity October 10, 2012
I’m a family lawyer. In Brisbane. I couldn’t get in to see the judgement handed down last week because the courtroom was packed to the rafters with lookers, hangers on and an amazing number of media.
Here’s the thing. There are dozens of Hague convention matters death with in the family court all around Australia every year. None of them ever hit the media, nor should they. Each and every Hague convention matter, and for that matter, each and every family court matter is an intensely private thing- following the breakdown of a relationship, a family, no one wins, least of all the children. Why did this matter get such attention? The mother, and her family got the ear of a willing journalist, and what should be a private matter became sensational tabloid fodder, and the children were shoved firmly in the thick of it. There are provisions in the Family law Act for prosecution and punishment for any person or corporation who publishes anything which identifies the parties to a case in the court. Our local daily paper, and plenty of commercial television news channels were in clear and flagrant breach of these provisions. I feel deeply sad for the girls that they were caught so firmly in the middle not only of a family breakdown and it’s messy aftermath, but a media storm that any adult would have trouble managing. And still, there are journalists outside their gates in Italy!
Anyway, I’ve done cases like this. The Hague convention is an international treaty, and as such is different to the decision making that occurs under the Family Law Act. There is very limited discetion, unlike the broad range of things that Australian family law takes into account when making decisions about children who are living here. Mostly, it’s focus is on to return, or not to return. Our country signed it so we have to uphold it, not only because it’s right, but also because if a parent leaves Australia and abducts a child to another country that is also a signatory, we want that country to uphold it too, and send the children back to their “home” jurisdiction so the decision making can happen here.
There is limited discretion-some around which is the “home” jurisdiction, and some around the “welfare of the child” issues. Not much discretion around “wishes of the child”. It’s much more limited than the usual discretion a judge has when deciding the best interests of .children in any usual case that happens in the Family Court, and it’s wrong for people to be thinking that the judge didn’t take everything into account. He couldn’t because that’s the way the convention works. Sadly, in the media frenzy, these simple concepts of what is and is not possible in a legal sense were never reported, and people have made judgements about the decision and it’s aftermath without this understanding. The mother did have excellent lawyers who argued her case well, and she exercised her rights of appeal to the Full court of the Family Court and also the High Court, on the issues where there is some discretion, but her arguments were not successful.
And yes, we are signatories to the convention on the rights of the child, and the family law act, and indeed the Hague convention are informed by that convention too, and decision making in both the family court and in Hague matters take this into account. But I wonder whose human rights were interfered with when the mother kept the children after bringing them here for a holiday, and whether the media have respected the rights of the children to privacy. All in all, no one has clean hands here.
In my experience, we need this convention to work. If we reversed the roles in this, and the father was Australian, and the mother fled to Italy with the kids, and a media storm erupted over there would we be outraged for him? I’ve had cases exactly like this, and the anguish of the “left behind” parent is equal to the anguish the mother in this case is now no doubt feeling. Again, no one wins.
And as for the Federal Police, all I can say is that every time I have been involved with them in recovering a child the subject of a Family court order, they have been very professional and thorough. They are called, mostly on short notice, to undertake a very difficult task, which is not part of their usual role. The Feds are usually only involved if it is clear that the parents are not going to be able to do the handover or arrange it satisfactorily. Sadly,the parents were unable to take a deep breath, say to themselves, ok we need to respect the umpires decision and Try to make the changeover happen with the least trauma to these girls. in my experience, the Feds try to have a familiar adult available for the child, but given the judgement of Justice Forrest about the credibility and unreliablilty of most members of the mothers family that may not have been possible. Ugly scenes, yes. Avoidable? Absolutely. The parents could have done their job as parents and said ” this is what needs to happen, you may not like it, but we have to respect the judges decision, and get on with it”. They could have told the judge via their lawyers that they could make an agreement for the changeover and plane ride to Italy to happen with the least amount of fuss and fanfare. I have had parents who, despite their own despair about the decision, have done exactly that.. And they saved their kids the experience of getting told by an unfamiliar police officer to come with them and riding in the back of a police car, or worse, be involved in scenes like have been played on tvs around the country. So, in short, whilst I am not in any way saying i agree with how the recovery was carried out, it was all totally avoidable.
There is rarely a clear, painless solution when family breakdowns get this messy, but the least we can do is allow this family to get on with whatever paths their lives, and litigation takes in privacy. As should have occurred in the first place. -
Francine November 4, 2012
Trinity, I’ve read this article some weeks after the event. The problem which others like myself perceive is that ‘legalities’ have taken precedence over the mental health and well being of the girls in every sense. What was the point of returning the girls to their father not only damaged, but perhaps irreparably? In traumatising the girls by returning them to Italy against their will, one could perhaps liken it to breaking a beautiful toy into little pieces and then expecting it to work. The father’s statement that this was ‘a beautiful moment for his family’ when they were returned showed how that he was completely out of touch with their feelings, unlike their mother (regardless of the ‘brainwashing’) which could very well be a trigger for a further depressive episode, of which he had been victim in the past, even violence. (I am relieved to know that there will be a monthly psychological report on the girls, and hopefully he will also get some assistance.) He has clearly sort to control the girls very aggressively since their return (including disallowing contact with the mother initially and then reducing contact to completely on his terms and rarely, also separating the girls initially, talk of putting the elder two into foster care if they don’t conform, one psychologist in the media making it clear that repatriation in these sorts of circumstances could cause the girls to fall into depression themselves, nightmares, poor school performance and even PTSD. All these behaviours could in turn create a further problem between the father and the girls and a vicious cycle of mutual resentment and damage; and it could just stay hidden trauma because dad just wants to see a kind of superficial ‘happiness’ it would seem. (One Italian official has been cited as saying that the mother could still be charged.) He has to earn the girls’ love and respect; it can’t be made to happen using force. I do not know why you would assume that all parents are capable of this ‘mature calm’ that allows them to return their children to a parent in another country when they are so concerned for their wellbeing. I would find it impossible by the time it had come to that, unless I was certain of their happiness. I would suggest that this mother was clearly concerned. The bottom line is that the Hague Convention does have provision for the girls to be allowed to remain in the ‘new’ country but that it has been denied in this case due to poor investigation and/or interpretation of the feelings of the children. I can only put it down to a backlash against the media involvement, obsession with the ‘Hague Convention’, and the current backlash against maternal instincts. Children are not ‘robots’ and simply putting on a brave face and reassuring them (of what?) isn’t going to cut it, except to make you feel better that you don’t have to see the turmoil inside if it is all done ‘nicely’. I could liken that to the father saying that the two younger children were perfectly calm travelling to Italy, yet passengers reported that they were quiet but very unhappy. Again, ‘pretence’ and talk of calm by the father is not a good indicator of emotional connection with the state of mind of the children, let alone competence. I asked my psychiatrist (who is extremely well respected amongst her peers) what she thought … I am sure you know the answer. Perhaps it would be better to take the view that this spotlight on this situation has highlighted the urgent neccessity to reduce the damage to children in every way possible (and therefore the parents I might add). Did anyone bother to tell the father what he was getting returned to him? Did his ‘lawyer’? Did the judge? Or was everyone so concerned about ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ that it became irrelevant?
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trinity November 27, 2012
Did anyone see the 60 minutes interview on Sunday night?
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trinity November 27, 2012
Did anyone see the 60 minutes interview on Sunday night?
