THE NON CHILD-FRIENDLY SKIES?
”Hell is other people’s children.” Fran Lebowitz
You have small children, you’re travelling by plane…would you book a flight on an airline dedicated to families with little kids?
An American company has floated a plan for just that – child friendly cAir where there’s an on-board toy rental service, special play zones, seats where families can face each other and larger toilets with change tables.
It would also offer sound proof compartments for passengers who want a break from the chaos or where a mum could breast feed baby in private.
That’s a whole lot better than the plastic pack of coloured pencils that were once offered to kids on a long plane flight.
After just returning from that nightmare long haul from the UK to Australia and enduring the torture of screaming children for hours on end, I have to say I’m for it… and yet…
As a mum who has flown with little ones and been on the receiving end of rude comments – even though the kids were just laughing and having fun – perhaps it’s just another sign that as a society we’re losing tolerance for children and really, a little sympathy and understanding would go a long way.
We were all kids once. And parents know there’s nothing more distressing than trying to quiet a fussing baby when all your fellow passengers are staring daggers at you. When a baby poos out of the neck of a playsuit and you don’t have a spare…don’t even ask. Been there.
Already airlines are segregating families with AirAsia the latest to restrict some rows in its planes to children above 12 years old.
(Twelve years old? You’d think most kids would know how to behave themselves on a plane much younger than that.)
Earlier this year Malaysia Airlines banned children from its first class cabins and said the loss of revenue was worth it compared with the stream of complaints it received from passengers about noisy infants.
But is this, along with parents’ rooms in some cinemas, just the thin edge of the wedge? Are parents with small kids becoming as unwelcome as smokers?
The no-kids-allowed movement is finding favour with hotels, restaurants and resorts… even grocery stores.
Last year in Pittsburgh, USA, a restaurant banned children under six and according to a poll taken by the local newspaper, half of the residents agreed with the restriction. A grocery store in Missouri offers child-free shopping times. A cinema in the U.S. scheduled an adults-only screening of Harry Potter. Go figure.
Writing in Adweek, under the headline, “The Kids Aren’t Alright. A new movement aims to protect the childless from germy broods” Robert Klara said: “Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing.”
And who’s to blame? Childless adults.
“Empty nesters continue to wield a huge swath of discretionary spending dollars, and population dips in first-world countries mean more childless couples than ever,”writes Klara.
Of course it could also lead to a more kid-friendly society where parents’ needs are recognised. In fact many travel companies now cater for child-friendly holidays and resorts increasingly offer “kids clubs” for travel-weary parents.
There is now parking for those with prams and strollers in shopping centres and cafes, gyms and hotels have play areas for kids… but, hmmmm, I can’t help thinking that the frowning and tut-tutting over playful children is increasing and that we breeders are in danger of becoming confined to cattle class.
And booking into an all-family flight is my idea of hell.
My greatest triumph as a parent with little ones came in a restaurant in Florence years ago when my two – then aged four and six – amused themselves with crayons and paper till well after midnight.
An English gent stopped the table by to say: “Congratulations on having two beautifully behaved children.”
My heart swelled with pride. I prefer to recall that moment rather than some others where … No, let’s just leave it at that, shall we?
Over to you.
Do you think our society is becoming less tolerant of kids?
Are increasingly inept parents to blame for ill discipline?
Or is it a good thing that finally companies are realising that families want to be catered for with services tailored for them?
56 Responses to this article
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Justin October 17, 2012
Yes, Australian society at least is horribly intolerant of children. If fact we treat them like shit. Unless they behave like shrunken adults they enjoy no tolerance and little compassion from the same adults that will later demand their services.
I didn’t realise this at all until we travelled with our 18 month old son to Germany Austria and Denmark. The culture there seems to be one that ‘gets’ kids, adults seem able to put themselves in the child’s shoes. At a restaurant they didn’t need to be asked to bring out a little something for a restive toddler to eat so that he could wait for his dinner, women and men (yes even men) acknowledged all three people when we entered to room, Justin Melissa and Finn we all greeted. Long distance trains has ‘play carriages’ as a matter of course (playground with wheels). In a check in line that stretched a hundred meters at Copenhagen airport, an older gentleman behind the counter saw us, and gave instructions that we should be brought to the front of the line as Finn was obviously tiring. I walked up the line fearful of the daggers I would be getting from others in the line. I need not have worried – a couple even patted Finn on the back as he went past. He was not expected to be able to muster the patience that so often escapes even adults.When I hear a baby crying on a plane, I’ve been known to ask if I can help the parent – get them a drink, walk the baby for a ten minutes in the hour so they can stretch, go to the loo. Why not? What’s lacking is compassion – too many adults acting like toddlers these days; demanding that toddlers should be kicked out for being what they are.
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Ella October 18, 2012
Tolerance, consideration and patience – old fashioned but always in style.
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Jan Dobson October 17, 2012
Good idea for a parent’s room on a plane for the convenience of the parent, but where would this end? An airline for disabled, special flights for the elderly, sniff tests for BO? Maybe we’d be able to reduce security if all non nationals flew separately?
Heaven forfend I have to be inconvenienced at all, ever! When did we get so precious that we’ve no empathy for littlies and parents, no respect for others? -
Sarah October 17, 2012
I would pay an extra 50 bucks to have a flight without being kicked in the back of the seat, and having to listen to a tired mother repeat her son’s name every 2 minutes. Oh yes, there are some wonderfully patient people out there, and then there’s me who just wants to scream “Will you Parent Your Little Shit PLEASE!?!” Happy to give a baby a cuddle, and a toddler a game, and a small child a chat – but ready to shoot daggers at parents who refuse to discipline rude, arrogant and belligerent children disturbing all other passengers.
Obviously, this is all being said from someone without kids. Get back to me in a few years, and I’ll see where I stand on it then
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Jenny October 17, 2012
Of course there was a time when young children were not taken to many of the places they frequent nowadays. Not too many parents of young children could afford to fly anywhere; young children were not taken to restaurants but were baby-sat at home while the parents went out. Bedtime for the littlies was about six o’clock in the evening, and they were seldom allowed to stay up later for any reason. I’m not saying that was better, but the difference is that children are much more visible nowadays, so I think it just appears that the level of intolerance has increased.
I do wish that people were more tolerant of children overall. It is quite unreasonable to expect a child to behave like an adult, and at times I wish that parents would expect less adult behaviour from their own children, such as expecting them to be patient and quiet when they are hungry and tired. Of course the best solution is to try and prevent over-tiredness to happen. Sometimes parents overlook their responsibilities toward their young, and expect to be able to do and go as they wish with no consideration of the child’s needs.
On the occasions such as mentioned in the article, and others such as the two-year-old meltdown in the supermarket, my reaction is to feel for the mother and reassure her that this is a normal part of child-rearing, and to ignore any dirty looks or remarks from ignorant passers-by.
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Call me grumpy October 17, 2012
Sorry, I’m with Sarah. I see far too many parents just ignoring their offsprings behavior. I am not your child’s career, I don’t want to hold them or walk them on a plane, and since I am forced to share a space with them for a number of hours I expect consideration from their parents. Sorry, i dont find bad behaviour cute by parents or children. I have had children continuously run into me whilst being ignored by their parents on planes, what happened to manners?bring on child free flights, Ide definitely pay more- even you , Wendy, admit that your idea of hell is an all family flight, well welcome to how i feel about it. As for children under 6 in restaurants, I try to get a late reservation to avoid them, but parents seem to be bringing them in later and later, and then letting them loose on the hapless patrons and restauranteurs. Whatever happened to babysitters! Where do we adults go to experience an adult evening free from noisy disruptive kids, it seems those spaces are disappearing. I don’t know how you can feel there is no tolerance for kids, in my opinion there is far too much. I’m not one of those people inclined to label people with children as breeders as you have, I think it’s unbelievably rude and patronizing, to each his on, but I wouldnt mind people with kids showing some consideration and respect for the rest of us.
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Lydia October 17, 2012
Wow! When can I move my small family to Germany, Austria or Denmark?! We have only one, very-well behaved 6yo, but becoming a mother has made me realise how horribly intolerant of children we are in Australia. And it’s getting worse in my opinion. I’m just waiting for the ‘we hate children’ brigade to start putting the boot in here – but I do appreciate the Hoopla’s better class of comment…. The writing here is all first class. Especially you, Ms Harmer. Not allowed in first class indeed! I’m not flying Malaysian again on principle.
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Lou October 17, 2012
Ah! This is a subject dear to my heart as our family has just travelled to and from Europe. As my nearly 11 year old son wanted a child meal we were placed in the “kids” section. My daughter is 14. We’ve done the trip before with babies and toddlers so really we feel like we’ve done our time. I don’t have a lot of patience anymore for toddlers. Babies can’t help themselves with crying and what not. But with toddlers at least the parents should try to keep them in line. On our flight home there was a noisy toddler who decided it was a great idea to play in the toilet by washing his hands over and over. Meanwhile the queue of people desperately needing to pee got longer and longer. Finally the mother opened the door and told the toddler just one more time. I loudly addressed the toddler saying oh yes please hurry as we are all busting while crossing my legs and looking desperate to pee. The toddler looked terrified and quickly raced away. I’m all for babies and kids sections and flights dedicated to families. If I had small children I would consider a family and kids dedicated flight. But now as my kids are older and our family has spent $2000 each on airfares I don’t really want to entertain or amuse someone’s toddler. Nor wait to pee while the toddler plays in the toilet.
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Lisa Lintern October 17, 2012
Call me crazy, but I actually LIKE it when there are lots of kids on a plane. As a flyer with neurotic tendencies, for me kids lighten the mood on a plane. At the very least they drown out the engine so I can’t obsess over that ‘funny noise’ I think I just heard. Yep…call me crazy. PS. There should be more Justins in the world.
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Doone October 17, 2012
It is not children per se that is the problem. I have 2 myself. But it seems that many parents cannot/will not do the hard yards in teaching their children how to behave in public. By all means let you your little precious express themselves at home. In public past about the age of 4 they should not be impinging on other peoples world.
I now avoid any place that will have high attendance of familys as I have no tolerance for the high levels of appalling behavior that seem to be acceptable. As my partner says – the parents cant deny themselves anything so why would you expect them to deny their children? -
RobynMarie October 17, 2012
Is there more leg room? Yes, I’m in. Needless to say I have no children.
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William Marshall October 17, 2012
Such a great idea now, if only there was an adults-only airline i’d be up for that!
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Emerald October 17, 2012
One of my greatest travelling with kids parenting achievements to date – flying long haul Australia to Ireland via Amsterdam with a 21 month old – one seat – daughter to big for bassinet or toddler seat. Airline does not allocate a passenger seat to under 24 months as only charging 10% of full fare. Purpose of the trip was for my elderly Mum in Ireland to see her granddaughter. The person seated beside me almost had a heart attack when we arrived and without any greeting promptly told me ‘I’m not sitting next to that kid’ before I had time to sit down or a word was uttered to which I replied and ‘And I have no intention of sitting next to you’ and we were promptly moved at my request. I had a lot of people offer to help me – my daughter was great. I have done long- haul flights many times with up to three children and my husband and I would say most people are fantastic (including our well-travelled children) but you get the odd person that’s rude and of course there is the odd children being children incident. All my trips were worth it (and the glares and stares) for my children to meet their overseas family. After my one seat trip when I got to Amsterdam I treated myself to a G&T and guess who was sitting in the restaurant beside me – only my ill-tempered travelling companion complaining about his lack of sleep and leg room etc.etc. Perhaps he should not have his own Lear jet!
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TMH October 17, 2012
Lou I would never let my toddler play in the toilet, but those toddlers’ parents are also paying $2000 for each family member. And Doone, my children are great travellers, but long-haul flights are hard to endure even for adults. And it’s not just for reasons of privilege and selfishness that we take our children overseas. Some of us want our kids to get to see and know loved ones who live overseas!
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Melissa October 17, 2012
Sarah’s comment, along with ” call me grumpy” struck me as wholly reasonable Wendy, not at all grumpy. I, like eseveral other people above actively avoid places where I know there will be a lot offamilies as my experince is one of excessive noise, ‘ takig over’ the space and lack of respect for others. Perpahs the ‘ tolerence’ also needs to come in the form of parents tolerating the fact that they should not take their children everywhere and that they shold not impinge upon other people’s space. Cabin crew also have a role to play in clearly pointing out to parents that civil behaviour is expected.
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Justin October 18, 2012
I think some of the comments above make my point better than I can. For the record, my son is considered very well behaved, and we are quite strict in terms of teaching him that he must consider others. He is at home, in bed, at 7pm except on rare outings. If he misbehaves he knows he gets taken out of there immediately. But in turn, I have no tolerance for people who would treat him like a blight on the community because he is three and gets tired, frustrated and upset on long haul travel.
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Justin October 18, 2012
Oh … and if you want to pay more to pretend you’re living in a contemporary version of Atlas Shrugged Airways, be my guest. Your loss. I’ve met some top people because our kids have collided or I have pitched in to help them out. Real people you’ll miss out on.
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sue elliott October 18, 2012
I am not certain why it seems to be acceptable for children to behave very badly indeed and it is not OK for adults to get drunk and become a bit loud and silly.
I am a mother and grandmother, but I am not the least bit interested in ‘it takes the whole village’ idea of child rearing. I reckon it is well and truly time parents stood up and took responsibility for rearing those which they have chosen to breed.
I would happily pay to travel in adult only planes, at least if there is any disturbance the flight staff are in a position to sort it out.
My very recent 9 hour flight – Sydney to Hongkong with a 10%er in their own seat in premium economy kicking the chair in front and screaming non stop with mum and dad being completely useless has definitely heightened my opinion. Never mind a $2000 ticket paid for by all. This was a $5000 ticket paid for by me and the kid went for bugger all!
I fail to see how anyone would think this reasonable.
I wonder why parents can’t agree to sedate their children if they are disturbing other people on the plane. This would be a win win for all concerned.-
Justin October 18, 2012
Dear Sue – SEDATE?? Like hell. Sedate yourself. Adults ARE held to higher level of behavioural accountability for the same reason they are expected to walk everywhere instead of be carried – because they are supposed to have those skills. For adults to cry ‘no fair’ because kids get ‘special treatment’ is the basest level of puerile over-entitlement, and we wonder where kids get that from?
I am starting to think I’d pay more for a kid friendly airline to avoid you!-
sue elliott October 20, 2012
Hi Justin, I would be happy not sitting next to you too.
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JM October 18, 2012
By far the worst experiences I have had on a plane were not caused by children, or their parents, but by rude adults:
Pushing the seat back into my knees.
Booking a window seat only to get up to the toilet three times on a Melbourne- Canberra flight.
Filling the overhead lockers with over-sized bags, then asking for my help in getting them down.
Getting drunk before boarding and then peeing in their sleep.
Taking sleeping pills within 3 seconds of boarding a flight to Singapore and sleeping the whole way in the aisle seat.
Buzzing for the staff nine times on a two-hour flight.
Smelling of BO, urine or stale alcohol.I could go on… I have had one child kick my seat. I asked his mother to help me out and she did. He was great after that. I fly weekly and have had only that one child do that.
Crying babies can cry all they want. I’ll take them over the horror adult.
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SarahMac October 18, 2012
The thing about flying on planes is that you are basically on a form of public transport. That is, in order to get to the place you are travelling to, you have to share close quarters with a bunch of strangers, adults and children alike. We are all used to our own space these days and it can be annoying I guess to be forced to sit near someone who talks loudly, snores, gets up and down, kicks the seat, whatever. I just don’t really understand why people get so enraged about it or single out little kids as the worst offenders. The flight is just a means to an end, you just have to put up with being very close to other humans for a bit in order to make long distance travel possible and affordable.
Having said that I would try and avoid plane travel with my two as the idea stresses me out, but I would definitely go on a kid friendly airline to avoid nasty comments. -
Wixxy October 18, 2012
I like the idea of an airline that has seats that face each other, that sounds great with or without kids…
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C Venn October 18, 2012
my mum always said “do you want me to give you something to cry about”? & we were smacked for carrying on in public. Some parents are thoughtless with how they let kids publically behave. I watched kids running round the fruit & vegie islands in a supermarket hoping they don’t know the walking stick out from under an elderly woman. As I have hyper-acousis (hearing hypersensitivity) I often wear earplugs in public of noise. Kids can squeal at 90 decibels. How many parents know that? I can’t handle the noise of trail bikes, airbrakes, or harley davidsons. Kids are the product of a lot of lax parenting. Small ones in planes is tough on their ears but it seems parents care more about the holiday than their kids when flying. If babies can be given general anaesthetic they can be given a very mild sedative to help them in a plane. I honestly believe parents have become self righteous & that’s disturbing. If parents disciplined kids & taught them how to behave people wouldn’t have anything to complain about.
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Justin October 18, 2012
I would give my son a general anaesthetic for a needed medical procedure, but not so he wouldn’t inconvenience you. Nor would I sedate him for that end. I’m not about to beat my son up on your behalf either. My son is well behaved but like all kids he has his moments. Since I am trying to raise a lad who will serve his community for the rest of his life, that community can cut him a little break while he’s getting there.
But seriously, you’re all relying on extreme examples of misbehaviour to make your point. They’re rare. I have flown quite a bit in my work. The reason you can bring those bad examples to mind is because you don’t notice the quiet ones. I have meniere’s disease – that isn’t the kids problem (but God I hate Harley Davidsons). Still, if people have nothing better to spend their money one, give them their kid free airline. Families would have a better trip for it.
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C Venn October 18, 2012
Valium is essential for those times when I don’t cope. As someone with a mental illness it’s crucial along with relaxation music (if possible). I also find that poor people are stricter. I live in a state housing area and the kids really cope it from parents but middle class people have use more sensitive methods & I don’t think they work as well. Kids on planes is a 1st world problem that didn’t exist 70 years ago
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Justin October 18, 2012
” I also find that poor people are stricter. I live in a state housing area and the kids really cope (sic) it from parents but middle class people have use more sensitive methods & I don’t think they work as well.”
Wonder how one lot got to be ‘middle class’ and the other lot poor. Immediate compliance does not always = good parenting. I want a child who can make decisions, not a compliant automaton that has been produced for factory and cannon fodder.
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TEHW October 18, 2012
I agree JM. Whenever I’ve flown the biggest problem has been the adults. Rude to everyone including the flight attendants and then knock everyone over to make sure they a first off the flight.
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Rebecca October 18, 2012
Yeah, I don’t think this is about the skies being unfriendly to children. It’s actually the opposite, they now get their own aircrafts.
I think the only reason there is even a need for this is because parents refuse to parent their children, and so the undisciplined child cannot be contained on a flight. You can’t let them run free 364 days a year and then expect them to buckle up and be quiet one day for a plane ride. Do the hard work, get them to behave. -
Jen October 18, 2012
I have autistic twins and we’re thinking of going on our first holiday next year. We haven’t been away from home in five and a half years and it’s partly because we’re so concerned about how the boys will cope with a flight and how the general population will react to us. I can see we’re going to be judged severely on our parenting skills by people who have no idea about raising children with disabilities. But bugger that. My children have as much right as anybody else to experience and travel the world. The general population will have to learn to deal with it and they would do well to remember that not all disabilities are visible and children much more than adults are likely to have sensory issues associated with flying. Adults, however, are supposed to exhibit more maturity in coping.
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Justin October 18, 2012
Good for you Jen – you go. Let the grown ups grow up. Remember that if someone criticises twice but doesn’t offer to help once, they’re probably not worth listening to.
It’ll be tough, but well worth it.
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susan October 18, 2012
It saddens me that some people are less tolerant of kids. I for one, love them. In my experience restless and irritable kids are bored kids and I happily provide a distraction or some attention. Children are not small adults, they’re learning how to control themselves, cut them some slack.
It’s so easy to judge children as undisciplined and parents as bad but how often do we really know what’s going on? Some kids could be like mine; obstinate, strong-willed and likely to cut his nose off just to spite his face despite the parenting they receive. This behaviour continues to bewilder and surprise me as he’s nothing like me. I’ve always stood strong against it and he’s much better now at self-discipline but often he’s completely embarrassed me in public because I know people judge me by his behaviour. I don’t tolerate bad manners and incivility but in your snap judgement of the situation how would you know that? I’m just a ‘bad parent’ of an ‘undisciplined child’ and now I’m having a really shitty day because of your glares.
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Justin October 18, 2012
I think you;re right on the money there Susan. It is not fair to make a global judgement about someone’s parenting based on one instance. The parent may be just exhausted, and has dropped the ball this once, or distracted with another child, or the child may be ill/or overwhelmed.
I feel like booking my family on an international night flight right now, and giving my son an espresso, red cordial and a water pistol full of urine. Not saying which flight either….
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Karen October 18, 2012
Wendy, you are a god – this is SPOT ON.
Our society is becoming more and more intolerant of children, and we’re the worse off for it. We cordon off areas for kids, when really, the whole world is their playground and only through being allowed to explore it without the constant hovering of helicopter parents or worse, adults who only praise them when they act like mini-grown-ups. We expect by plonking them in the kid zone we are somehow absolved of having to raise them and teach them how to be productive, caring, responsible members of our community; but only through being allowed to move freely around that community (within the bounds of its rules and social conventions) do they learn to do this. -
Jen October 18, 2012
Further to my previous comment, the general population coming into contact with a difficult child may lead to a temporary discomfort for the person involved, whereas the judgemental condemnation by society of people who are seen as failing in their child rearing has a real impact. It leads to people already struggling to cope becoming more socially isolated, thereby increasing the likelihood of mental illness and depression. I’m sorry, but this really gets my goat. We need to focus on social inclusion for everybody in society, not just those who fit a stereotype.
And thanks for your support Justin. It’s made my day.
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Karen October 18, 2012
AND, Jenny makes the point that children are more visible nowadays. I would agree children who look or act like adults are more visible – all these mini grown-ups in their $50 jeans and designer jackets sitting in cafes getting stuck into baby cinos.
Real kids – the ones who climb trees and live in bare feet – they’re the ones who are no longer visible. We went to our local park 4 times during the recent school holidays and only once did we have to share the space with another family … this was in the middle of the day in spring. I wonder where have all the children gone? Are they inside playing with their toys and their iGadgets? Sure, the world isn’t as safe as it was when bedtime was 6pm, but I think the way we apportion space to kids – and overly allow access to screens of one form or another – says a lot about our tolerance of them. -
Belle October 18, 2012
I just flew back from Bali with my 18-month-old last night. We come prepared, with books, crayons, extra snacks, bottles and now an iPad, but she got so revved up with the extra attention and the stimulus of new things to see, it took a while to wind down. Yes, there was a little howling (about 15 minutes).
Interestingly, the two older men sitting nearby were the most tolerant, playing with the baby when she stretched her legs, while it was the 50+ woman who told me, after I apologised at the end of the flight, ‘Glad it wasn’t a flight to London!’
Bloody oath Australia is intolerant. That’s why families are busting a gut to get to Fiji, Bali and Thailand, where they can let the guard down, without censure.
The best airlines (ie most tolerant with my kid) I’ve flown are Vietnam, Virgin Australia and – can you believe – Qantas! But with Australian flights, it really depends on the flight crew, whereas the internationals are more black-and-white.
With immediate family on the opposite side of the world, we’re not going to stop travelling. But we will teach our child to respect others and to behave. Now, someone’s just got to teach all those adults.
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C Venn October 18, 2012
Parents will have to get used to the fact that not everyone’s into kids & there endeth the lesson. As someone with a psychiatric disablity I can assure there’s not too much tolerance for us either. I bet you’d rather be a parent today than in the 1920s & 30s. Dad’s mum had 14 kids living in a house with plumbing or electricity and modern parents whine about flying. LOL
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Justin October 18, 2012
Actually, the way I read the discussion – it isn’t the parents whining. You’re right though, flying was out of reach of most people a little while ago. Now that we can fly, there’s whinging about kids flying because those with no kids might not get a good enough nap. First world problems alright. ‘LOL’.
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Belle October 18, 2012
C Venn, it’s not about being into kids or not into kids. It’s just about politeness, tolerance and respect, all round. That’s the lesson.
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RobynMarie October 18, 2012
JM OMG! I recently flew to Vietnam and was seated in the section with the babies and toddlers on the way over and the grown ups on the way back. The babies/children were MUCH better. Noisy, yes but on the whole very much better. I am not a parent and I wouldn’t say I am particularly tolerant so that is really saying somehing. The grown ups smelt much worse too.
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ellenni October 18, 2012
because of my husband’s health we are forced to travel business. last year we flew from bangkok to perth. we had a crying toddler all the way. the parents took in turn to hold and rock the child but they could not settle the child and it was a most unpleasant experience for all. the child did not pay for its seat as it was under 2 but we paid more than 3 times the cost of an economy seat so we expecte some comfort.
there are 32 seats in business and not one person made a complaint on the plane but most of us did not get any rest. we were on holiday and did not have to go to work the next day but several others had to go to work. so what do we do? -
Tony W October 19, 2012
I was on a flight to Adelaide recently and the woman in the seat behind me had a small boy on her lap. He kept kicking the back of my seat until finally I turned around and looked at them. The kicking stopped but after a while he started pressing his feet against the seat back, gently at first, but harder and harder until the seat moved forward and I could feel his foot through the upholstery pressing hard into the middle of my back. I didn’t react so after a while he started squirming his foot around. Finally I turned around again and stared hard at him for a moment. Nothing was said but he withdrew his foot and the seat sprung back. I sat down again and got comfortable but a few minutes later the whole thing started over again, pushing harder and harder and squirming his foot around in my back. I turned around for a third time and he stopped again, but only for a minute or so. By that time we were getting near Adelaide so I bit my tongue and put up with it for another 10 minutes. Finally the plane landed and I got up from my seat. I didn’t look back at them again because I didn’t want to see her stupid face.
I see games like played all the time by kids in public, in all sorts of little ways. They’re forced to test boundaries with strangers because their parents don’t give them any. Today’s parents prefer to negotiate with their kids rather than discipline them, for fear of them becoming cowed and submissive. Clearly that’s Justin’s fear: “Immediate compliance does not always = good parenting. I want a child who can make decisions, not a compliant automaton that has been produced for factory and cannon fodder.”
That’s fine, but not for a 4 year old. They’re not ready to make decisions minute to minute about what they can and can’t do. It’s stressful for them, they crave boundaries, that’s why they risk testing them with complete strangers. Parents do their kids no favours when they deny them boundaries too early.
If parents want to withhold discipline from their kids, that’s their business. But when they behave like little brats in public, don’t expect us to love them as much as you do. Personally I find Australian kids pretty obnoxious for the most part, they make me glad I never had any. One of the reasons I love travelling in Asia is the children. I find them absolutely delightful, I want to bring a few home in my baggage!
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sue elliott October 19, 2012
Justin, you have had a great deal to say. It is interesting to me that you want a toddler to be allowed to think for themselves so they might make a leap it seems, into the ‘middleclasses’. That I find more than a little shocking in itself, but I find it wearisome to think that you also seem to believe that toddlers’ choices are so much more important than my choices, and that you and a toddler are sooo much more important / valid / righteous than any single adult.
Wendy, I am very sorry that your little one had a bad reaction to the phenergan. I can only imagine how guilty that might have made you feel. My daughter had had severe ear trouble from birth so pediatric phenergan had been long tried and tested before we went on a plane, and I can attest to the subsequent ease of travel for me and more importantly for her.
The vitriolic attacks against people who just want a quiet life really beggars belief.
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Tony W October 19, 2012
haha, discussion of sedatives reminds me – apparently I was hyperactive as a toddler, never ever still, took two people to hold me down to change nappies, and I was always trying to escape from my cot. Apparently I learned to rock back and forth until it overturned, so my father had to bolt it to the floor. My mother wasn’t coping herself so they put me on Largactil (chlorpromazine) which was the new wonder drug in the ’50s. It was the first antipsychotic, very successful, quickly replaced ECT and lobotomy. It’s effect on emptying psychiatric hospitals has been likened to that of penicillin and infectious diseases. Pretty powerful stuff for a toddler I would have thought! Anyway I was on it for years apparently, went through bottles and bottles of the stuff. My older sister tells me all this, she’s horrified to think of it now. So don’t feel too guilty Wendy!
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Annie Also October 20, 2012
Wow. The thing that impresses me the most about all this is the wealth of Hoopla readers. I wish I could fly from here to Melbourne ( to see my new grandson) or have one trip overseas before I die, ( but that won’t happen). What a bunch of whingeing middle class ungrateful people.
You could be dead tomorrow. Lighten up, delight in life in all its adventures and for heavens sake be grateful you can afford to even get on a friggin’ plane in the first place.
There! -
sjb1273 October 20, 2012
Once upon a time there were places that kids didn’t go – to the movies, on planes, etc. And if they did go, they were under the fear of all that was holy to BEHAVE because they were in the Adult World. Lines have blurred in the last 20 years and now its rare to find a place where kids aren’t catered for – even pub beer gardens have play areas. I’m a parent, and I still wish for Child Free places and times… I don’t feel I’m being draconian. Just an adult, wanting to enjoy my adult free time in a kid-free space.
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Kaz October 23, 2012
I’ve done the long haul UK/ Australia twice, plus several shorter flights. I consider myslef and my children fairly seasoned travellers. I’ve had both extremes of the comments about the lovely behaviour of my children and the dagger-stares too. I do my best to ensure my children are considerate, but you know, on the last leg of a 2 day flight they get to a point where they have simply HAD ENOUGH and there is no method in the world that is going to stop them expressing their frustration. It is simply not reasonable to expect anything else of a 2 or 3 year old. While you have been kicking back, chillling out with your movie and your G & T I have been on constant red alert to ensure my kids stay calm and quiet. In the days , even weeks before the flight I have put much thought and consideration into toys to amuse, snacks, wipes for mess etc, letting them know what behaviour is expected from them. I think I do all that is humanely possible ( I draw the line at drugging them) to make sure a flight is as painless as possible for both them and fellow passengers. So if you catch me when things aren’t going well, woe betide you if you tutt tutt or glare. I will glare right back at you, my conscience is clear. Sure, there are some inconsiderate parents out there, but there are also a lot of us who are doing our very best and could do with being cut some slack. By all means people, be self-centred and make your life as controlled and quiet as you like in your own space, but on a fight, get real. Children exist and they are not going to behave like adults. Grow up and deal with it.
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Dee October 25, 2012
The disturbing thing about this discussion is how it is so polarised and just plain rude even the discussion about these issues is. (Drugging kids or adults, urine pistols, etc). It is also cast as a debate between people with kids and people without. I don’t have kids myself (so have travelled quite a bit without children) but I have sure spent plenty of years rearing kids that are not my own and have been on both Australian domestic and long-haul flights (20+ hours) looking after babies and toddlers. I also travel a lot for work. I have had lovely experiences travelling seated near kids (yes kids are fun and entertaining, I agree) and I have had horrors (yes, in fact there are some kids where I wish their parents had thought to intervene and, for example, suggest it was impolite to kick someone in the back repeatedly as happened in my most recent experience of this – with a 6 or 7 year old sitting behind me, not a toddler. Some advising from the parent to the child on “social conventions” may have taken the edge off my growing grumpiness at that point). I have also of course travelled with some horror adults too. I am sure on some flights when I have been extremely tired my cranky quotient ratcheted up a notch or two and been one of those adults less capable of divine tolerance. I also often have a lot of patience when travelling and generally enjoy the variety of people that get thrown together on planes (including the kids!), and at these times I have likely glowed with the aura of a love for humanity. As one of the comments above suggested, some of the people I know who want a bit of peace when they leave the house (whether airlines, or restaurants) aren’t non-parents, they are parents who are craving a bit of down time from their own kids, and all kids in general! But also, regardless of whether they are parents or not, those ‘horrid’ adults who tut-tut might also be tired. Or going through a terrible time in their life. No-one is at their best on long flights, and everybody has different issues affecting them. It is not only parents (or their kids) who might be under strain. The person who got up three times on the flight that someone complained about might be sick or have prostate problems or something, and they may not have made the decision about their seat, by the way. Not to mention the range of possible issues the people waiting for the toddler to stop playing with the taps in the toilet may have had, including people with mobility issues or oldies who might find it hard standing up in line for so long – bad enough when the line is just long because of people using it for necessary purpose, but when it is long waiting for a toddler to stop playing – really? Is that really ok? I actually don’t think that is okay, if it is the situation as it sounds in the retelling here, even though (based on my own experiences) I have absolute empathy for the parents and the kids on flights. I’ve got no problem with kids being kids and I think they deserve the right to participate in the community as much as anyone else (what a strange world it would be without them!) but I do think everyone potentially has issues affecting them we as fellow travellers may not know about, not just kids and their parents. The adults might be ill, or overwhelmed or be dropping the ball just this once too. (Point taken that they are adults, and “should” be able to cope better than kids, but that doesn’t mean perfect every time, and my point is that, anyway, you don’t know what their issues are). Kids or no kids, people might be travelling due to a death in the family, may have anxieties, may have disabilities which may or may not be visible, may be recovering from an injury or surgery, or they may have kids travelling with them who have a set of different issues, or any range of other things. So actually I think some slack should be cut in every direction. Whether they are parents travelling with kids who are obviously going to make some noise and want to move around at some point. Or other travellers who may have any array of other issues affecting them and actually probably also deserve some consideration of their needs too, whether anyone else can see what they are or not. Some of this likely does go to the fact that airlines are squishing more people into planes these days so we are all a little more uncomfortable and little more closer together (so those little legs reach the bag of the seat easier! and the scowling faces might seem a bit closer too!) so that’s one thing. Maybe the issue isn’t to spend time being nasty and rude to each other but to consider how we can in fact ask airlines to juggle the different reasonable needs of people, even within ‘standard airlines’, not necessarily isolating all parents and families onto one plane together. So for me the issue we need to address is how to get past this polarisation of the discussion and accept that there are reasonable issues on each side/all sides of the discussion and we can figure out how to navigate a way to accommodating them as much as possible… and yes, tolerance and thoughtfulness towards others is necessary on all sides. For me, communities are meant to be places where everyone can happily participate – not ‘adults only’ and not kiddy-kingdoms either. Hmm, that was an unexpectedly long comment! Ha.
