“I WANNA BE A BABE”
“I wanna be a babe.”
That’s the wonderful Pamela Stephenson’s jokey explanation for her long-term addiction to cosmetic surgery, which, according to her new memoir The Varnished Untruth, has led to a gruesome litany of surgical adjustments throughout her life.
Boob jobs (a total of three, had her first one aged 21), tummy tucks, eyebags removal, double chin removal, saggy neck tightening – there’s not much about the 60- something comedian and psychologist that hasn’t been altered.
This week she was asked by a young woman on the ABC’s Q&A about why she would want to “defy the natural processes of the human body.”
She gave her flip “because I wanna be a babe” answer and met with great applause and laughter. She lapped it up.
But there was a second part to the question, and the answer was fascinating, paradoxical, and more than a little poignant.
“Instead of encouraging people who change who they are, shouldn’t we be encouraging people to be happy with themselves and their appearance?” the young woman asked.
“Absolutely,” replied Stephenson. “In the very first chapter of my book I’ve written about an epiphany I had when after one of those surgical procedures to which you are referring I went to Brazil and discovered how culturally defined some of our notions about female appearance are.
“I went there and found myself on a beach surrounded by babes of all shapes, sizes, and ages wearing the tiniest bikinis you’ve ever seen in your life, fio dental they are called, dental floss, and you can use your imagination about where that dental floss goes.
Pamela “I wanna be a babe” Stephenson. Photo by Craig Borrow via The Herald Sun.
“I began to realise, for the first time perhaps in my life, that I have suffered from body image problems my entire life.
“These women taught me a huge lesson, that what I should have done with the money I spent on surgery, is move to Brazil, buy myself a flat and whole wardrobe of fio dental and live happily ever after.”
It makes you wonder how Stephenson, as a psychologist, would counsel someone who comes to her with body image issues.
Questioning women about their cosmetic surgery choices is perilously dangerous ground to tread – freedom of choice and a woman’s control over her own body has become sanctified, as it should be.
It’s wrong to judge the individual. But is it wrong to judge the context?
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94 Responses to this article
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Alicia October 16, 2012
At least she owns up to what and how she looks like that at 60.
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Gayle October 16, 2012
To be honest i don’t think she has got her money’s worth. I didn’t think she looked that “hot” at all.
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Linda October 16, 2012
Goodness, I wouldn’t consult her as a psychologist, if she hates her appearance so much that she has to keep on altering it. What does that say about her inner balance? I am 46, nearly 47, and would never consider facial surgery or a boob job. Whilst there is a (macabre) fascination in watching the jowls and wrinles appear like magic, I am happy to hand over the baton of attractiveness to other, younger women. it is actually refreshing to be assessed on who you are rather than how you appear to others.
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Sydney-sider October 16, 2012
I think we also have to ask where the line is drawn. I get waxed, dye my hair, get my nails done. While most of these aren’t consider particularly dangerous, like a boob-job or lipo can be, is it really that different to physically changing yourself with surgery?
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Kevin October 16, 2012
I agree completely. It is surely a person’s personal decision whether they want to modify their body or not, just as much as it is their decision to wear makeup or not, or endlessly chase a tan through various means. The only difference (other than cost) to me seems to be varying levels of personal risk – and surely that is a personal thing and nobody else’s business.
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Carolyn October 16, 2012
Those are impermanent S-S. Miss a few appointments and we’re all back to hairy legged women with dark roots.
Surgery can’t be nullified quite so easily.
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MichelleP October 16, 2012
In recent years I have had laser treatment (IPL) to remove dark hairs from my face. It is supposed to be permanent. I feel like it’s somewhere in between temporary beauty treatment (waxing/hair colouring) and cosmetic surgery.. I have no interest in cosmetic surgery (via a knife) and actually rarely even wear make up.
However, when someone (usually a child) notices my ‘beard’ or ‘moustache’ it stings and its hard to not want to do something about it. I wish I could just go ‘Well that’s what happens when you hit 40+’ but I have become quite self consicous about it. I guess for me stray facial hairs are the tipping point, for others it’s saggy boobs or wrinkles…. -
Michelle October 16, 2012
Pamela is normal. She’s been inculcated with centuries old societal notions that a woman’s power rests *only* in her ability to be attractive to men. Most women buy into this. It’s a part of our hegemonic cultural practise. It is both wrong in that it devalues women who cannot meet the shifting standards of perfection demanded – and so ingrained into the fabric of our cultural life, it’s (choosing to be “a babe”) is considered a “right”.
Pammie is also wonderfully intelligent, witty, and well… she must have something to have tamed the wild thing that was Billy Connelly eh?
Pammie has boobs, a bum, a waist, lovely eyes and a great smile. She would have had these if she had never had cosmetic surgery. Sadly, our world adjudicates humans on the basis of aesthetic appeal. Sadly, women are told it’s their responsibility to ensure they are pleasing to look at.
It’s not easy being female. It’s not easy being a complex human being with body dysmorphia. There are so many double, triple, quadruple standards to navigate.
It is however, brave for women to be *exactly* who they want to be regardless of these complexities. The real test for human integrity is to admit we fail daily to live up to the exacting standard we expect of ourselves.
Pammie is living with hers. Let’s focus on how great she is at being witty.
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joy October 16, 2012
The silver threads are tangling through my hair; gravity is pulling at my breasts and cheeks; I’ve inherited my mother’s crows feet; and my adolescence spent in the sun have ensured there is very little of my skin with no freckle or mole. I’m squishy and spotty and creased. But that’s okay, because I’m 46 years old – I’m not supposted to be pale and tight and smooth anymore. I like this relaxed woman and her laugh lines much more than the smooth but insecure teenager she came from.
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Hedewich October 16, 2012
I’m 48 and must say, some days i think what would a little botox do for the wrinkles around my mouth or eyes or a mini face lift, because some days gravity is pulling everything down it seems
But than i think of all woman having surgery because they are very ill and who are scared having narcosis, will they wake up etc. I’m so glad being healty, and that also caan change in a minute! Is it all about confidence ? I think it is, it’s important taking care of your body AND MIND, take every week so called “me time” create your own little spa @ home , pamper yourself and enjoy being who you are Count your blessings -
Norelle October 16, 2012
Actually I beg to differ. Pamela is not normal she has access to lots of funds to spend on something that is probably the most wasteful use of middle class money ever known. By the way – what exactly does being a ‘babe’ offer – no I mean it. Does it mean more money, sex, power, expensive stilettos? I really want to know.
Look naturally anyone is free to do what they wish, YES it is their choice, just as it is mine to donate to charity or employ a young trainee. I am happy in the skin I’m in – wrinkling around the eyes, expanding around the hips and tummy. Wearing make-up is a temporary enhancement, even a social costume. Surgery is a sad spiral of non-acceptance.
Sometimes you see women and you think ‘oh dear looks like a mistake has been made’ as they no longer look like themselves; isn’t that the most hideous act you could do to yourself.
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Alis October 16, 2012
I have eyebags. I have always been selfconscious about them. I used to spend a whole heap of $ on bag-tightener. But i just realised, while reading your article about pamela, that i have, somehow, post-35, forgotten about them! At the same moment i gained an insight. It’s partly because i’m too busy to care – i’m writing a thesis and have also started work in a new career that i absolutely love – that should also tell you i’m too fulfilled to care – but there’s something else as well, and here’s the insight: i don’t notice my eyebags anymore because i’m in love with my crows feet. An aged face is an interesting face. When surface beauty fades, interior joy upsatges insecurities. As dame edna said, “what are wrinkles but the dried up creek beds of old smiles.” i don’t think it takes courage to age gracefully. All you need is joy
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Lisa N October 16, 2012
What a great quote from Dame Edna!
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Lisa N October 16, 2012
I will admit I was quite surprised and shocked to hear Pamela say that last night. I have also had “body issues” in that I have been overweight for many years and not liked it that much (as the weight was associated with emotional issues), but I still loved my body and what it has achieved and what it is capable of. I have recently lost 16 kg and feel good about how I look – and still love my body. I have no interest, however, in “going under the knife. I am 46, I like my wrinkles and my saggy boobs, and feel that cutting myself to transform my appearance is a form of mutilation. The concept of a boob job to “make myself feel better about myself” really begs the question “why don’t you feel good about yourself?” and to look for the answer – that is where the courage lies, and it is surprising that a psychologist, who asks people questions for a living, can’t do that for herself.
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The Huntress October 16, 2012
I think it’s very personal and we should be less quick to judge. I feel like I’m in the minority here, but I just spent a HUGE amount of money on a breast reduction and a torso-lift…WHY?!?! I hear you ask…
I have always been large busted, small back. I was a 10G. When I got pregnant I ended up with pre-eclampsia. I gained huge amounts of weight in the last weeks of my pregnancy, mostly fluid (my total weight gain was 40kg) and promptly lost it afterwards. My skin didn’t cope and at 23 I was left with my curvy figure, weighing 65kg and all this hanging skin over my tummy, bottom and thighs.
I waited 8 long years to have the surgery I had this July and it has changed my life. I no longer have to hide myself. I finally let my husband see me naked (he never had before). I don’t have anywhere near as much back pain or neck pain and my clothes fit properly. I am still curvy with an 8F bust, but more in proportion and I just feel good about myself. So judge away, but I don’t regret a cent that I spent. I was a monster for all of my twenties and I refused to spend my thirties that way. So I guess you could say I wanted to be a babe. I’m nowhere close to being a babe, but now I’m babe enough for me.
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Rachel October 17, 2012
I would love to talk to you via email too!! I’m so glad it worked out for you and you’re so happy with it. I’ve wanted a breast reduction for years – my mum and sister are dead against it but they are both small chested. I’ve said, walk a week in my shoes and then let’s talk.
I don’t consider it a vanity procedure at all – I don’t think anyone can understand unless they have lived their life with massive bazookas. It’s the only thing I would consider doing and just because I think it would fix my ongoing neck/back problems, make. exercising easier, make clothes/bra shopping easier-
The Huntress October 17, 2012
I really would love to, Rachel. I’ve had an ENOURMOUS bust since I was 12 – I went to high school no smaller than an F cup. I can understand why people are against surgery and I do think everybody does need to consider their own needs as it may not be for them. But I am very happy to share my story with anyone who is interested as I think it’s good perspective to hear from someone who has been through it. I don’t want to breach any posting rules here, so if the mods can help out and let me know if I can post an email address, or if there’s a way of passing one on I would be glad to tell my tale and answer any personal questions.
BTW I remember when I was 16 and my mum suggested to my dad that I get a reduction. He was HORRIFIED by the idea to say the least. Now that I’m 31 and have had it done he has actually said how improved I look. It’s not just the look of my boobs, but how I walk, how I hold myself etc. It’s very easy for those without ginourmous breasts to be against it, but for me I only wonder why I didn’t do it sooner
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RabbitwithFangs November 23, 2012
Sorry – you were a ‘monster’? Because you had large breasts and some loose skin after giving birth?
I guess it’s sometimes very telling that we are our own worst enemies sometimes.
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Buttercup October 16, 2012
Being a woman in this youth centered culture sometimes is hard. I m 59 the same ad Pamela. I have silver hair which I love, and more than laughter lines. But I am fitter than i was in my thiirties, have a toned body and a great figure and am happy. Mind you there are times when I think about Botox so who knows……………..
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ellenni October 17, 2012
sad to think she cannot face aging. i have silver and black hair and wrinkles befitting my years. my family seem to like me and i certainly like me. i am overweight too. i still like me. my husband of 48 years likes me and we match. if you want surgery to go for it but ask yourself if you were badly burned how would you cope – how would pamela cope, because no amount of surgery can fix burnt skin.
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Ms Behavin October 17, 2012
I am a bit tired of celebs being presented to us as relevant examples of possible lifestyle choices. I doubt most women have the financial means to make such choices without blowing their or their family’s budget. I was disappointed that Pamela had not as a psychologist analyses this issue in greater depth. You said it -the voice of reason was Charlie Pickering who said what you would expect a psychologist to say!
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Sere October 17, 2012
To The Huntress,
I don’t think the surgery you had should be compared to somebody having lipo, a facelift, a nose jobs etc. Where these people risks their lives just to conform to the pressure from the part of society that says we have to look a certain way.Even recovering from a so called ‘simple nose job’ is like recovering from an assault on your face. Why do people do this to themselves? If the person was recovering from an injury such as this with the amount of bruising they receive we would feel sad for them but this is self inflicted. How crazy is that? Read the book called ‘Ugly ‘(I think that is what it was called, it was a best seller).I don’t like the fact that the author went through a lot of plastic surgery because of the way she felt about herself because of the abusive words her mother had said to her growing up.I wish she could have overcome the words that were spoken over her.
But read it for the author’s description of what she went through in the nose job, she descibed it so well. The way she described the surgery felt so abusive that it felt as if the surgeon should be up for assault. I was getting angry while reading it as if the surgeon was assaulting her. -
Tony W October 17, 2012
Michelle, the imperative of female sexual attractiveness is not a “societal notion” which women “buy into”, it is hard wired into the female brain through millions of years of evolution through natural selection – whereby females must compete to attract a mate for the purposes of reproduction. It’s called survival of the fittest, and it cuts both ways – males must compete for a mate on physical characteristics too, related to physical strength, because for millions of years they were called upon to fight for territory and hunt for game as providers. That can be rather difficult if you’re pregnant or suckling babies, which is what females spent most of their short lives doing before human life expectancy quadrupled in recent times.
We’re kidding ourselves if we think these primitive survival instincts reinforced over millions of years can be overcome cognitively in the space of a few centuries. That’s why they still apply today – men continue to select attractive women to mate with, and women continue to select men according to their ability to provide a safe and stable home environment. Yes, we’re slowly working towards sharing these duties and breaking down these evolutionary roles, but we can never rewire the primitive part of our brains wherein these instincts reside. Nor would be want to, unless we want to live our lives on a purely intellectual plane devoid of emotional content, including love itself.
Pamela’s struggle to accept her outward appearance is universal – her intellect tells her it doesn’t matter, but her primitive instincts tell her she must “look like a babe.” The ways in which women accommodate this internal conflict is entirely up to them. Pamela is a psychologist, which tells me she has pursued her intellect at least much as her female instinct to look attractive. They are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, societal expectations on women to look attractive are much greater than for men, but it’s not “part of our hegemonic cultural practice”. It’s a product of human evolution. Furthermore, society has always placed equal but different expectations on men, namely to fight wars and provide for families. As far as societal expectations are concerned, these things remain optional for women.
In other words, it’s all just an accident of evolution. If we were birds, it would be the males having to look attractive and colorful, and the females having to look plain and dull to avoid detection by predators while nesting.
I think if we can start understanding entrenched gender roles and expectations as being a product of past evolutionary necessities, instead of seeking to apportion blame, we might start to get somewhere in breaking them down. For a start, the whole religious patriarchy falls like a pack of cards, as being nothing more than an attempt to formalize past societal structures, which had been successful in human survival until then. Now of course they’re very much outdated and impractical, and fail to capitalize on female potential.
As always, science holds the key to understanding and advancement. We need more women in science, like Pamela.
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Tony W October 17, 2012
BTW congratulations Huntress on finally working up the courage to undergo surgery, sounds like it’s improved your life out of sight. Perhaps if it was more socially acceptable you would have done it earlier and not suffered for 8 years.
And to all you other judgemental bitches, get off your moral high horses. There’s no worse form of misogyny than women attacking other women for their choices in life. People like you deserve to be ruled by Abbott.
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The Huntress October 17, 2012 Thanks Tony. I’ve been fortunate that all my family and friends have been supportive of my surgery. They knew how much anguish it caused me and how much it stopped me from doing the things I really wanted to do. I would have done it much sooner if I could have, but torsolift is a very expensive procedure – it was money very well spent and now I can focus on the things I would rather be concerned about, like learning French so I can work for Doctors Without Borders when my son is a bit older.
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Dirty Pierre October 17, 2012
Meh… it’s like brushing your teeth
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Kate October 17, 2012
It is a personal choice and as long as it does not hurt anyone else I have no opinion one way or another. The only thing I will say though is there is a fine line between looking well miantained and looking like you have had mulitple surgeries. Plastic surgery does not really make you look younger it just makes you look like a 60 year old who has had plastic surgery.
I red a blog post the other day about someone’s experience in going to a dermatologist and the cosmetic suggestions made to them – it sums it up, women get hit from all quarters about how to improve their looks as htough aging is just plain ugly.
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Norelle October 17, 2012
are you in the industry Tony W ? just wondering – wondering why my ‘primitive instincts’ tell me it’s a false packaging promise. there was a movie years ago with Elizabeth Taylor where she has surgery in order to keep her husband (she thinks). Guess what … he’s even more shocked and is outta there.
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Linda October 17, 2012
I resent that I even have to think about this! I am aged in my 50s now and I thought in the early 80 s and late 70 s that we had addressed this and had moved forward . We seem to be going backwards .
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Daphne Alaksa October 17, 2012
As far as I can see we should all make our own
choices with regard to what we do, or don’t do, about
our appearance. To those who wish to have surgery,
I really wish it will make you feel happier. As for me,
no thanks. I’ll take all the lines and wrinkles I have.
I have someone close to me who is a doctor. He once
said to me that I should never have surgery unless it was
absolutely essential. The point he was making was that
surgery can be difficult at any time, so best not to take
the chance. Having had 4 absolutely essential surgeries
in my life, I’ve had enough. If people look at me and think to themselves that I have lots of lines on my face, why not?
It’s not necessary for me to care what other people think of my appearance. Those who care for me think I’m great exactly as I am. -
Katie October 17, 2012
I don’t see how this can even be discussed rationally. A woman’s age and appearance are eveything in our society, so what do you expect?
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housegoeshome.com October 17, 2012
I think it takes more courage for a woman to age gracefully than a man. We want to feel attractive – that’s basic human nature isn’t it? – yet few women in the media are regarded as such without having plastic surgery or botox. Men, on the other hand …
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Keryn October 17, 2012
Huntress – I have a similar problem (although not as small framed as you). I recently had a hysterectomy and while showering the nurse who was helping me asked if I had considered a reduction. I did not bring this up but she did, based on her observation of me naked in the shower! I had considered it but wondered about the pain factor. Having just had surgery I can think of nothing worse but I am interested in your experience.
It is obvious that we are all attracted to people for different reasons and though there needs to be physical attraction, it is ultimately who they are that keeps you there. A ‘babe’ to me is not a ‘babe’ to you. My husband has a mole near his mouth, he hates it – I love it and it is actually something that attracted me to him when I first met him, it is just him, no-one else. Funnily enough our eight year old daughter has just recently grown a mole in the same spot. Love it (hope she does too and doesn’t feel the need to have it removed, however it will ultimately be her choice)!
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The Huntress October 17, 2012
Hi Keryn,
To be absolutely honest having a breast reduction is one of the best things I have ever done. I am now exactly 3 months post procedure and I am already thrilled with the results. Not just cosmetically, but for my comfort as well. It’s far less painful than you think it would be (well, in my experience it was) and being a nurse myself I made my decision based upon having a bit more of an understanding of surgery and anaesthesia than people not in healthcare.
I would be really happy to tell you more in depth about my experience – am I allowed to post email addresses on here? I’m not sure what the protocol is in relation to that…can the mods help me with that?
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RobynMarie October 17, 2012
Huntress, thank God the voice of reason at last! So what if Pamela has had tonnes of surgery. Good luck to her. She was a babe in her youth and I don’t blame her for wanting to look her best. I HATE getting older and I’ve never been a babe. I just want to look good. As for graceful aging – forget it. You are all mad if you think that is a reality.
Katie, you hit the nail on the head. I wish I had the guts for a tummy tuck (no pun intended) I don’t want the pain or the down time. -
RobynMarie October 17, 2012
Tony W – Agreed! We will never improve our lot if we continually attack each other.
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Sam W October 17, 2012
Us Westerners can be so so insular and indulged. Millions are starving, without clean water, homeless and impoverished and here we are obsessing about wrinkles and tits. I know it’s a part of our community debate and we are a million miles away from the suffering so many others endure, but I always feel like there is a massive gulf of lost perspective and warped western priorities in these discussions about cosmetic surgery…
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Joni October 19, 2012
I agree!
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Jacqui October 17, 2012
Not even sure that was the right forum for Pamela, she didnt seem relaxed at all. And she is always so entertaining, surgery or not! And I LOVE charlie pickering – he was the most interesting panelist hands down !!
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HeatherBelle October 17, 2012
Thanks to Tony and Michelle for telling it like it is. Who’s to judge? We are ALL hard-wired to want to look good and it gets scarey as we get older coping with the ageing process. Lucy in your pic you look slim, clear-skinned, bright eyed and gorgeous – lucky you, those that don’t are constantly up against this benchmark and sadly are judged if they fall short – even sadder, mostly by other women.
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Keryn October 17, 2012
Jacqui – I too love Charlie Pickering after that panel. I didn’t really have an opinion on him before but he was so level-headed and didn’t buy into any of the politics.
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Keryn October 17, 2012
Huntress – not sure about putting your email out there, we will wait and see if a moderator comments.
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royce October 17, 2012
I have been quite ‘put-off’ by a couple of procedures my wife has undertaken, but the latest one I love…. she has stopped dying her hair and is now beautifully greying.
Women seem to undertake these procedures for other women…. Men who love them usually are blind to the faults they think they have.
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JanMe October 17, 2012
I’ve just turned 60. I’ve had laser resurfacing, filler and laser skin rejuvenation. I have my now grey hair dyed a gorgeous brunette as it had always been. I have my brows etc tidied up and my nails done. I stay slim and on trend fashion-wise. I have a ‘bump’ in my nose and small boobs but they are me, and I’d never have surgery. I’m also extremely happily married, with a great life and career. What i need to say is that I have the cosmetic work done, and go to the efforts that I do to keep myself looking good, for me. I’m sixty but I feel as I’m thirty. It’s not fair that when I pass a mirror I see someone who looks seventy or eighty, with a chooky neck, puckered mouth, droopy eyelids and puppet line creases around the mouth. It’s not me looking back, but a reflection of my mother. Yes, my mother is beautiful, for her age, but I’m not there yet. It is unfair pigeon-hole and judge everyone who feels the want to do cosmetic procedures. It is a continuum of needs and reasons, and all based on legitimate and complex self-esteem, self-worth, self-identity issues. I guess the bottom line for me is that I am wise enough to know why I do it. I do it to align how I feel on the inside with how I look on the outside, and I think that’s fine.
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Sere October 17, 2012
Tony.W,
Please tell us if you work in the ‘plastic surgery’ industry then we can get a proper perspective on your comments. I call it ‘plastic surgery’ because ‘cosmetic surgery’ takes the seriousness out of the procedure completely (even though ‘plastic surgery’ is still too light a term).
Even if it can be a weakness of women to be effected greatly by their appearance, society through the media is responsible for making this issue unbearable for a lot of women.
Also a lot of men are also falling into the trap (buying more and more products and having ‘plastic surgery’) because the money motivated media machine is trying to make them feel the same way.
The people making money from our insecurities are never happy to stop at one group to market to. They have to make as much money as possible so they are working on men (making them feel that it is all about looks) and younger and younger females, by sexualizing young girls.They are working on younger males as well and you can bet they will start to focus on young boys more and more. What group do they have left? Will they move onto animals?lol
By the way, the media and society can’t do this to people who stay strong and develop themselves emotionally and know what life is really all about.
ONE POWERFUL WAY TO DO THIS IS TO LOOK AWAY FROM ALL THE IMAGES THAT ARE FLASHED IN OUR FACES EVERYDAY.
I KNOW IT SOUNDS SIMPLE BUT TRY IT SERIOUSLY, AND SEE HOW MUCH STRONGER YOU START TO FEEL IN THIS AREA.
There was an article on ‘The Hoopla’ a while back about how women from some of the other cultures place less importance on body image. The mind is very powerful, what we constantly see and hear effects us greatly unless we take control of it. -
sue bell October 17, 2012
My ageing/looks problem was solved naturally. I am badly sighted so when I look in the only mirror I have in the house without my glasses on I cannot see a wrinkle or grey hair. Although in my sixties I only ever look 18 to myself. Get rid of the mirrors and take off the glasses and feel beautiful and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.
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JanM October 17, 2012
Unfortunately cosmetic procedures are not always a simple choice to solve a beauty/ugly or youthful/ageing dilemma. There is an insidious association between youth and beauty and ageing, ugliness, relevance! So at 60 and hoping to stay in the workforce for a few more years, I notice that the culture of youth in the workplace does as much damage as any media, magazine images etc. It is not about looks, so much as the, at times, overwhelming pressure to stay ‘relevant’, to be included and respected, to need to keep proving ones’ competence, to be listened to, to have credibility in a predominantly much younger environment. I said before, i am fit and energetic. On the inside I am thirty something. I will succumb to any extra help that makes me look on the outer, the way I feel on the inside. And here’s a suggestion for everyone. Think about how you approach the older people in your workplace, both men and women. Ask whether you are contributing to yet another perpetuation of this ” beauty myth.”
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Bern October 17, 2012
I have had my breasts reduced (they were huge), an abdominoplasty done (that did have complications) after a lot of weight loss and laser surgery on my eyes (chronic myopia bordering on being legally blind).
I wouldn’t change any of that surgery for quids. After the breast reduction I was found to have had a pre-cancerous condition that would not have been found (until perhaps too late – my mother has had a partical mastectomy so I have a higher chance of getting the disease), had I not had the surgery. It was found because of the pathology that is always apparently done on body tissue that is removed from the body. I was very closely monitored for two years afterwards and still have to be very careful.
As long as one is not having surgery every year or more frequently than that (because of the effects on the body), and one has a healthy self-esteem, I see no reason for women or men, not to have a bit of work done if that is their choice. It’s not something I am going to have more of (in terms of making me feel better about myself) and one has to take into account the effects of surgery on one’s body. I form lots of adhesions which have caused me to have follow-up surgery yet one of my friends forms no adhesions at all, which causes her other problems.
It’s personal choice as far as I am concerned.
I do think too that people’s judgements on Pamela Stephenson re her ability as a psychologist based on her having plastic surgery, and then about people’s perceived judgements of how good or bad she looks following this surgery, are in poor taste. As a clinical psychologist, she has practiced for many years now and is respected in her field. She may write in women’s magazines but that doesn’t mean that she is not a creditable psychologist and counsellor and cannot give sound balanced advice to others. If you can’t say something about someone, then don’t say anything at all.
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george October 17, 2012
My Mother is 83, she has aged naturally, gracefully and is amazingly elegant. She was the best looking person in the room at a recent function we went to together, she looks way better than me at 50. I am hoping to age as well as she !
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Tony W October 17, 2012
I hope this thread continues, its an important discussion. I’d like to reply to a few comments, so at the risk of boring people I shall post a few more (in no particular order).
Linda – like you I grew up in the 70′s and 80′s, and I thought we’d put all this behind us. Clearly not, and we’ve regressed on women’s issues as you suggest. No better indication of that than the rise of Tony Abbott – I’m sure you’ll agree he would have been cut down in no time in the good old days. And they really were good old days – exciting times when outdated notions of gender were being challenged, and real change was happening in society, to the enrichment of our lives as men and women. They were heady days, it was in the air all around us, even in popular music, with Lennon’s “Woman is the Nigger of the World”, and our very own Helen Reddy with “I am Woman, Hear Me Roar” – which topped the charts here and in the US. Yes, it all sounds hokey now and I’m a little embarrassed to mention these daggy old songs, but I do so to convey to younger women here just how big these issues were in those days, and just how much women’s rights and their status in society are taken for granted nowadays. It’s natural enough – young women never saw how bad it was for women in the ’50s, in terms of opportunities in their lives, and my generation assumed the battle for change was won long ago. However I’m not sure complacency alone can explain the rise of someone like Abbott – I’d be interested to hear other views on this.
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Tony W October 17, 2012
Norelle – you’re wise to question whether I’m in the cosmetic surgery industry. As it happens I’m not, I’ve never been anything more than a humble worker I’m afraid. However I’m sure there are cosmetic surgeons out there who promote their trade without informing patients properly of the risks. As with any surgery, informed consent is imperative, and we are unwise to rely on the surgeon alone to provide that information. And yes, as the movie you mention suggests, it’s wise to consult your husband too!
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Tony W October 17, 2012
Sere – see above reply to Norelle. Also I agree with all your comments entirely. Marketing is extremely sophisticated nowadays, they know exactly how to press our emotional buttons. As you say, images are extremely powerful, that’s why subliminal advertising was banned years ago. Language too is extremely powerful, in subtle and often insidious ways.
Advertising is all pervasive as you say, and corporations are constantly in pursuit of new markets. When it comes to making a buck to satisfy shareholders, morality is a luxury that can’t be afforded. No group is above exploitation, even child sexualization as you mention, with one famous example being banned as pornographic.
I’m not sure how we can combat these forces in society – perhaps more focus in education about the techniques that are being used to manipulate us.
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Tony W October 18, 2012
royce – as you say, “Women seem to undertake these procedures for other women…. Men who love them usually are blind to the faults they think they have.”
This goes to my original point re human evolutionary instincts, ie. the powerful female drive to look attractive so as to compete successfully for a mate for the purpose of reproduction. Just because they succeed in doing so does not mean the instinct itself suddenly disappears overnight.
In other words, when women have cosmetic surgery, they are acting out of instinct.
The problem here in the West is that we see female instinct exploited to make a buck. They may have loving husbands, but the message to them in advertising is loud and clear – youth and beauty are everything in life. Furthermore, you too can look young and beautiful when you’re 60, just like Victoria Principal. All you need to do is start using her expensive range of personal cosmetics at age 30, and keep buying them for the next 30 years.
Hence we see older women held up to increasingly ridiculous standards on TV and in women’s magazines, so it’s not too surprising when they succumb to the pressure and undergo cosmetic surgery.
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DorisDay December 13, 2012
It frightens me that you think you know my mind better than I do. Congratulations on your sentiments but what do you really think? That we’re still struggling with the evolutionary hard-wiring of the caveman era. That’s enough for me.
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Tony W October 18, 2012
Katie – you say “A woman’s age and appearance are everything in our society, so what do you expect?”
It can certainly appear that way, particularly in the corporate world. I notice the few women CEOs we have are invariably slim and attractive, eg. Gail Kelly at Westpac. Fortunately for Gina Rinehart she inherited her position!
However, when it comes to happiness in life, it turns out that a woman’s appearance has little or nothing to do with it. Certainly in the long run anyway. Amongst my generation of friends I know some very attractive women who are desperately unhappy with their lives, and some very plain fat women who are deliriously happy with life!
As a bloke, I get to hear stuff from other blokes that women never get to hear, and without going into details, one thing we all agree on is this: a woman’s appearance may attract us initially, but once we get to know her, we can barely stand the sight of her! Similarly, a woman may not appeal to us initially, but as we gradually get to know her, she starts looking better and better each time we see her! It’s really quite weird but it’s true.
Anyway I know from personal experience that female appearance is nowhere near as important as society would lead us to believe. I know it’s a motherhood statement but Charlie Pickering is right when he says “don’t index your self esteem or your worth to your appearance.” That applies both ways, ie. highly attractive women should never assume that it’s enough just to look fabulous.
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Tony W October 18, 2012
Keryn – you probably know this already, but a single facial mole on a woman, especially near the mouth, has always been highly prized, and referred to as a “beauty spot”. One famous example in recent times was Marilyn Monroe. Her mole was actually skin coloured, but she darkened it with make-up because she realized it set off her beauty. Suddenly beauty spots were in vogue again, and they started appearing on women everywhere! Another famous example was Marie Antoinette, whose beauty led the French court to realize the same thing, ie. a small imperfection can actually enhance a woman’s natural beauty – which led to women spotting their faces with fake moles! But it goes back even further than that, to the 1600′s, when people wore tiny black patches to cover pox scars, and they were imitated because they were seen to increase facial appeal.
If you’re wondering about my interest in facial moles – my ex-wife had one. She was extremely attractive, a real head turner, and I’m sure the beauty spot was a part of that.
So if your daughter is ever considering having her facial mole removed, I hope she checks out the history of beauty spots first!
It definitely works on men too, like your husband as you mention. Another example that comes to mind is Robert de Niro, who women tell me they find extremely attractive. But the real proof for me was a mate of mine years ago, he was nothing special to look at, but he had a facial mole on his cheek, and women were all over him!
As you say though Keryn, the person with the mole usually hates it. My ex-wife was the same as your husband. She used to disguise it with make-up, but it was really too prominent to hide.
Interesting that your daughter’s mole is in the same spot as your husband’s – I didn’t know they were hereditary to that degree.
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Isabella October 18, 2012
It occured to me while the Olympics was on, with it’s motto “Faster, Higher, Stronger” that in all other endeavours people are celebrated for the effort they put in to reach their goals, but if you put effort into looking good, everyone says you must have a mental disorder.
I hardly think plastic surgery is anywhere near as dangerous as jumping out of a aeroplane at 39km, yet that is accepted and celebrated while plastic surgery remains taboo.
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Tony W October 18, 2012
True, effort is very much applauded in sport, but the use of drugs to artificially enhance performance is bitterly condemned. So perhaps cosmetic surgery is seen as cheating…? Not only cheating against other women, but cheating nature itself. That might account for the strong criticism when women have major / repeated surgery.
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Bev Malzard October 18, 2012
Who cares? Her business – not ours, she looks pretty gorgeous too. Why do we keep on judging other women – do as you please – to yourself that is. On this subject, other women come out like pilgrim evangelists, tut tutting – shut up and go buy a new lipstick
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Tony W October 18, 2012
Bev Malzard – in case you misinterpreted my post, I’m in total agreement with you (see my earlier post re judgemental bitches). I’m just trying to understand the psychology behind all this criticism and judgementalism from other women.
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Jacqueline October 19, 2012
Why is having an opinion interpreted as being a “judgemental bitch”? What’s wrong with putting forward an explanation or comment about why one chooses to age in certain ways – it’s all part of the conversation surely? I find it interesting to read the views of others who certainly have different ideas to mine about how to live their life
Not only that but 5, 10, 15 years ago I held different views to how I was going to “age” but experience can changed some of those plans. And Bev – I already own about 15 lipsticks, wouldn’t leave the house without it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…I don’t find Pamela attractive – she doesn’t appeal to my tastes. Now Isabella Rossolini on the other hand…gorgeous. I have never found Pamela’s brand of humour amusing (was around when she started her stand up comedy, and recall a surfboard fringed with fluff…to represent the female genitalia) – it doesn’t appeal to my tastes. Billy Connelly on the other hand has always made me laugh to the point of choking. It’s a matter of personal taste. -
Tracy October 19, 2012
Oh my, having a man EXPLAIN it all to us women….where would we be without a man to clarify everything???
The comments about evolution and hard wiring were in my view particularly off course. I recommend Cordelia Fine’s “Delusions of Gender”. An excellent read. -
Tony W October 19, 2012
Jacqueline – condemned by your own words I’m afraid : “I don’t find Pamela attractive…I have never found Pamela’s brand of humour amusing”
That’s judgementalism, ie. “A value judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something, or of the usefulness of something, based on a personal view.”
Obviously we’re all guilty of judementalism, it’s a very easy trap to fall into.
BTW I apologize unreservedly for the use of the word “bitch”, it was very wrong of me. My only defence is that I was defending a woman, but that in no way makes it acceptable.
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the*sparrow October 19, 2012
I do agree with the adage “each to her own”, and I am not above a touch of enhancement myself, but I do also think that a woman in her sixties who STILL wants to be a babe is delusional – unless of course she wants to be a babe for 80 year old men!
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the*sparrow October 19, 2012
And I don’t mean delusional in a mad way, sorry, re-read that post and I didn’t like it – meant that society has a lot to answer for when women feel pressure even past menopause to be babes – just leave us alone!
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Tony W October 19, 2012
Tracy – I agree absolutely re Delusions of Gender. I believe authors like Fine represent the next wave in addressing gender issues in society, after pioneers like Greer and Summers awakened our consciousness with their books in the ’70s. That’s what I was getting at when I said “As always, science holds the key to understanding and advancement. We need more women in science.” Ignorance of science in this area has lead to popular stuff like Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus – very unhelpful in my view.
My use of the term “hard wired” was perhaps misleading, but I was speaking of our different survival instincts as men and women, not our cognitive abilities – which as Fine and others have amply demonstrated, are NOT predetermined by gender. I was trying to make the point that our entrenched gender roles are explainable as evolutionary necessities, and that it’s unhelpful to blame patriarchy itself – of which men are victims in their own ways too. Certainly in time we can reorganize society and replace patriarchy with meritocracy, but my argument is as I said, “We’re kidding ourselves if we think these primitive survival instincts reinforced over millions of years can be overcome cognitively in the space of a few centuries.” Highly intelligent women in top jobs will still derive pleasure in looking attractive – even if society doesn’t expect it of them. I don’t think Fine’s work disputes that.
Anyway thanks for pulling me up on the “hard wired” thing, I can see now it’s extremely loaded language in gender debate, exactly the kind of notion Abbott seeks to promote. So I can certainly understand your reaction hearing it from a man, and I promise not to use it again! Apologies if my writing comes across preachy or condescending sometimes, I can assure you that’s not how I feel towards women. Quite the opposite in fact, I find the only intellectually stimulating conversation I have these days is with women. Not sure what that says about me or my gender!
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Tracy October 19, 2012
“I was trying to make the point that our entrenched gender roles are explainable as evolutionary necessities, and that it’s unhelpful to blame patriarchy itself – of which men are victims in their own ways too”
“Evolutionary” implies that gender is just a part of the natural order of things; what is natural, it follows, is therefore normal and cannot / should not be changed – you do talk of the great difficulty in reversing millions of years of evolution etc. Ideas of “natural” are often used to control and silence women and maintain the status quo. The fact is that gender is a social construct – there is nothing natural about it. Patriarchy created and continues to reinforce gender roles to maintain men’s position of dominance. Men of privilege (white and wealthy etc) enjoy greater advantages – but all men are compensated by the dominant status that all men enjoy over all women. This helps explain the rape culture we live in, the extremely low rate of rape convictions, the prevalence of domestic violence and pornography and excuses such as “boys will be boys” when they engage in sexist and violent behaviour.
It is evident that there is nothing at all natural in pink princesses. Our roles were not shaped by evolution but by the desire of men to own and and sometimes trade in the bodies of women for sexual access, unpaid labour & as a reproductive resource that they can control – and law and religion aided him in this. Still does of course – look at the draconian abortion and contraception proposals in the US.
Femenism 101.
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Tess October 25, 2012
I’m with you on both your comments, Tracy.
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Sere October 20, 2012
Tony W,
Do you know if there is a site like ‘The Hoopla’ out there where men share about the issues they face. As I would love to read the articles and the comments and comment myself. -
Lou October 20, 2012
Sere, there’s the Good Men Project, a US site where they discuss issues like this.
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Tony W October 20, 2012
“The fact is that gender is a social construct – there is nothing natural about it.”
That’s exactly what I’m trying to prove here! By tracing the origins of patriarchy back to its very roots, we can see that it’s completely arbitrary! Man’s power over woman stems from species survival needs which no longer apply, and haven’t done for millions of years. Namely the female’s dependency on the male for defence of territory and provision of food during her confinement (charming term!) and presumably for a significant period after that while she was burdened with an infant. The thing about humans is that we’re necessarily born underdeveloped, because of our large brain size relative to our body, so we’re dependent on the mother’s milk for considerably longer than other mammals, and we can’t even walk for a least a year.
When you think about how that might play out for a lone couple, or even a small tribe, living amongst wooly mammoths and sabre toothed tigers, and other tribes competing for territory in which to hunt game, it soon becomes clear where the power lies. The female is simply out of effective action too long to be able to survive independently in that environment. The safest place for her and her infant is in the cave – so she was consigned to home duties for much of her short miserable life after puberty! She was entirely dependent on the male who was free to roam the countryside and hunt game with his mates.
Hence my argument about gender roles – that they arose out practical necessities millions of years ago, as the most effective division of roles for ensuring the survival of the species, in an era of extreme survival pressures. That to me is the origin of patriarchy. If I’m right, then it can’t be argued that patriarchy is somehow the natural order of things. It’s clearly UNnatural in modern times of plenty.
That line of reasoning is to my mind the most compelling argument against patriarchy, and whilst I understand your desire to avoid questions of human evolution, it does seem to me that feminism overlooks the role of evolution in establishing patriarchy as the orthodoxy.
You mention religion as aiding man in his exploitation of women, and here too I believe the picture presented is often incomplete. However I’ll save my thoughts on that for a later post.
And yes, there’s nothing at all natural in pink princesses! I’m always amused by the “pink for girls blue for boys” thing, when for most of history it was the other way around.
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Tony W October 20, 2012
Sere – sorry no, I don’t know any sites for men. You’re right though, it would be good to see a site like Hoopla for men.
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Sere October 21, 2012
Thankyou Lou,
So glad someone could let me know of one.
I will check it out. -
Sere October 21, 2012
Tony W,
Lou said that the ‘Good Men Project’ is a US site where they discuss issues like this for men.
I am going to check it out. -
Tony W October 21, 2012
“look at the draconian abortion and contraception proposals in the US.”
We shouldn’t kid ourselves this could never happen Australia. We’re already seeing an increasing acceptance of this kind of thinking amongst conservatives – no better proof than the rise of Abbott.
Perhaps if feminism weren’t so wilfully blind to evolutionary factors in gender they might be able to fight on this ground more effectively. Rational arguments cut through with most men where female outrage often doesn’t. It seems to me there’s an opportunity being missed to present your case in a way that won’t alienate religion. I’m an atheist myself but religion will be with us for a long time yet so we just have to work with it if we wan’t to get anywhere.
Anyway I can see I’m pissing in the wind here so I’ll leave you good folks alone now. I’ve enjoyed my sojourn on Hoopla and learned some things too. My thanks to those who have engaged with me and good luck in your struggle.
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Tony W October 21, 2012
In my haste I forgot to give a plug for Evolutionary Psychology, a relatively new science which I find useful in explaining much of modern human thinking patterns and behaviour which otherwise seems to make no sense. Evolutionary Psychology shows that natural selection has provided humans with many psychological adaptations, in much the same way that it generated humans’ anatomical and physiological adaptations. Many of these ancestral psychological traits are maladaptive in modern society and need to be recognized so they can be addressed cognitively and overcome. Anyway I hope someone here finds EP helpful in their life as I have.
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Glen October 22, 2012
Hmmm. I’m in my sixties and having always looked after my face and body with inexpensive moisturisers, and no doubt being fortunate to have good genes, I get a great kick out of people thinking I am some years younger than I am. I have often dreamed about a bit of surgery as gravity and age takes it’s toll, but I know I would not get the same sense of “achievement” if it was all artificial. It just wouldn’t be me.
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pauline w October 22, 2012
Each to their own. I have had plastic/cosmetic surgery and it’s the best thing I did FOR ME. I don’t care how other people want to age but there is no way I am not going to do all that I can afford or want.
Unfortunately that is the way of our society. Looks matter, both genders.
