ON LOVE AND SUBMISSION
SPOILER: This is not a post about Fifty Shades of Grey. Sorry.
The Anglican church in Sydney is adding a new, controversial vow to its marriage services. In it, the bride will promise to ‘submit’ to her husband.
Submit – The act of submission. To accept or yield to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.
Though the husband is not asked to make the same pledge, Sydney’s Anglican church says the vow to submit is not ‘sexist’.
Though the man promises many things, and in the version above, husband and wife both promise to ‘serve’ each other in their marriage, it is never suggested that a husband obey his wife or submit to her will.
The man’s role is one of leadership and his right to authority is made evident by the fact that he is, well, male.
One supporter of the full ordination of women, Reverend Chris Albany, of South Hurstville told SMH in 2006, “I believe the New Testament shows Jesus accepting the full and equal place of women within society… I believe a clear and informed reading of scripture… shows there is no obstacle to that full and equal role of women.”
Unfortunately, women’s submission to men is a loaded issue with a long and ugly history, within – but by no means limited to – marriage which was originally a contract of ownership between a groom and the patriarch of a household, hence the ‘handing over’ of a bride from father to groom during the traditional ceremony.
The idea of marriage has changed dramatically since biblical times, and it is now widely accepted that women can work, vote, take an equal place in society, and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions whether they are single or married.
This is especially true in places like Australia, where we have anti-discrimination laws, our first female Prime Minister, our first female Attorney-General and capable women on boards and in leadership positions across the country.
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37 Responses to this article
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Alex August 27, 2012
if you look at the page for Moore College where this is discussed, you see all the links to American Baptist or fundamentalist churches. This is not even Anglicanism which is a pretty benign excuse for a religion outside the precincts of the Sydney neanderthals. There’s been a coup inside the church, it’s been taken over by American religious nutters.
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Valerie Parv August 27, 2012
To use another dance metaphor, modern women should sit this one out.
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sue bell August 27, 2012
This is truly shocking. I hope it drives more women to leave the Anglican Church. The word submit is akin to slavery.Submit to what? The man’s political views, the man’s interpretation of what a wife should be? Does it make rape in marriage legal within the church definition.
Here we see the increasing rise of the ultra fanatical women hating religions. It is hard enough to fight for equality in the world without having to fight it all over again in our own homes.
I married in the early 1970s. I have had to spend years defending my right to retain my own name, I have been abused by a bank teller for not wearing a wedding ring (I don’t belong to anyone, a ring is a sign of being possessed) I have been abused by public servants for using the title Ms.
Surly this move by the Anglican Church is a breech of the anti discrimination act. They should be condemmed and laughed at for their misogynistic beliefs. -
Melanie August 27, 2012
Never ever give up your rights, never! Women have fought long hard battles to give themselves equality , if any woman agrees to this vow they are truly moronic. I love my husband of 30 odd years but there is no way in Hell I am ever going to submit to him unless I want to…. and that is just the way he likes me. This kinda thing makes me furious, I thought we had buried the old ‘love, honour and obey’ marriage vows years ago, amazing how misogyny can raise its ugly head. The problem is easily solved though, don’t get married in any church that wants you to be a Stepford wife. The old adage if you act like a slave you get treated like one comes to mind.
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Di August 27, 2012
I am truely saddened that in 2012 we are having this discussion. How backwards looking the Anglican Church has become to even consider this vow, let alone to actually include it in the wedding ceremony. No woman in her right mind should submit to any man, including her husband.
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HQ August 27, 2012
A young woman of 26 might think it is ‘romantic’ to submit to ‘love’ and I truly hope that it works for her as she continues to grow and mature as a woman. However, as an expectation, or a norm, it is a very backward step and in cases where violence will raise it’s ugly head, it is downright dangerous. For men to feel that they must, at all costs, be in control, shows a lack of maturity and full roundedness on their part and must come to understand that it is as much anathema to women as it is to men.
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Jodi aka Lipgloss Mumma August 27, 2012
I really can’t believe this is happening in this day and age. Marriage is an equal partnership and it really is a simple as that. I would hope that any woman getting married in the Anglican church is smart enough to stand up to this and these outdated and dangerous views.
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fredn August 27, 2012
submit?
First challange, finding a women that would say it.
Second challange, living with one that would. -
Happyeverafterbride August 27, 2012
I think that this passage has been taken out of context. The church uses this passage and concept to symbolise what the Christian faith should entail and that the Marriage should replicate the Church and that women should have faith in their partners much as men should learn to Love selflessly in the relationship.
I don’t think the word submit is meant in a weak way and to be honest, the church certainly will not want for a woman to submit to an abusive relationship. I was told by my Priest before I married that if there were fundamental ethical wrongs in the marriage, we should separate, so I am clear that the teaching does not embrace submission in the Chauvinistic sense.
I am a strong woman who believes in my rights too but I am more than happy to let my husband take charge if I have no idea what the matter is about and in other matters that I have more insight, I’ll step in as long as I am not bullying him into doing things my way and vice versa. There is more harmony and sense in the passage then what modern english translation would have you beleive.
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cate August 28, 2012
happyeverafterbride, if ‘submit’ is not meant in a weak way, as you claim, why doesn’t the man say it too? why say it at all?
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Haryana August 27, 2012
It is a very fine line between leadership and control in intimate relationships. Don’t see how I could agree to marry someone who would WANT me to swear to submitting to their will.
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Julie August 27, 2012
Dear ‘Happyeverafterbride’ – what a load of tosh!
Submit cannot be used in any other way than making the one submitting ‘weaker’ than the other.
‘….. and that the Marriage should replicate the Church…….’ – yep, that’s exactly what they (the Sydney Anclican Diocese) want. Women ‘in their place’ – subservient where they think they should be.
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gogirl August 27, 2012
@Julie
Your post made me laugh out loud, and I was on the bus (how embarrassing)
It needed to be said, and I couldn’t agree more. I was just despairing after reading the post by ‘Happyeverafterbride’.
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Sara August 27, 2012
But don’t we use Modern English? How else are we supposed to interpret it? Why are we even talking about this?(cue volley of obscenities, table thumping and the bang of a door as she storms out in disgust.). If we have to explain why the concept of a woman submitting to a man or vice versa is NOT a good thing, is the conversation even worth having?
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suzanne August 27, 2012
Recently,as a celebrant, I married a very old friend and his now wife. They chose to say these vows, each to the other. The usual+’ to love, honour and obey’. I had the usual knee jerk reaction to this choice of the word ‘obey’. But John explained to me that to promise to obey his beloved meant that he did submit to her entirely in utter trust and a belief in their mutual desire for the abundance of the other. It only works if they both say it.
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Carly Mae August 27, 2012
The problem I have with the word “submit” is that unless both husband and wife are playing by the same rules, the words “submit” and “obey” can come back to bite you.
For me, when I chose to leave my physically and verbally abusive husband (a Christian man, or so I thought) he constantly called me, wrote to me and screamed at me about how I had stood before God, in His church and promised to OBEY him and I wasn’t obeying him by leaving.
I was bombarded with bible verses telling me how I had to submit to him as his wife. The concept of submission or obedience has no place in marriage. The words we need to focus on are compassion, co-operation, love and respect. -
Rhoda August 27, 2012
One certainly has to wonder. It’s one foot forward and 2 steps back as we move towards equality of the sexes.
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Carolyn August 28, 2012
Wow. In a time when the church is struggling to get people – especially young people – through its doors, you would think they would be trying a bit harder to hide their ugly, mysoginistic side.
The Catholic church must be feeling positively progressive – what a novelty!
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Kerry August 28, 2012
Surely the words “love, honour and respect” would be more appropriate in today’s society. The Anglicans are moving back to the Middle Ages.
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Katie August 28, 2012
Ghastly move by the church. Retrograde. Destructive. Yes – I’m horrified.
And I do think it is related in a way to 50 Shades. (Not that I intend to read that badly written potboiler – and not because of the theme – I saw The Story of O in about 1970, ho-hum).
But this current theme of S&M – mainly M for women – is apparently a gender hotspot of the day.
The reason this bothers me is not the sexual fetishism, but the correlation with so much present-day misogyny and abuse which seems to be anti-feminist backlash.
Is S&M just a harmless populist female fantasy? Unfortunately it seems to dovetail into much misogynistic social reality.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick (!). Anyone with a credibly positive social take on 50 Shades in the present context would make my day!
The church issue seems to fit into misogynistic trends that continue to be exploited.-
moiby August 28, 2012
Clap! I agree Katie – there are some similarities with 50 shades.
I don’t like this move by the Sydney Anglican Church, but how does it differ from a woman’s willing submission in a dominating sexual and social relationship? And what does it say about the women who read 50 shades and think it’s great (obviously not from a literary point of view)?
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Mary August 28, 2012
This is why marriage celebrants are more and more popular. Is it compulsory to use their vows if you get married in their church or can you modify them? What happens between you and your husband will happen regardless of what you say in your vows. One of my best friends is a Christian (Anglican) and a widow and I know she would have no problems saying submit as she doesn’t believe women should preach in church. So maybe these vows are aimed at people who are church goers and who make god a major part of there lives.
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Aulos August 28, 2012
The Anglican Diocese of Sydney is a very, very different place to pretty much every other Anglican diocese in Australia, and most of the rest of the world. They have more in common with conservative American evangelical churches than most other Anglicans. They are anti-gay and misogynist and tend to make the other Anglicans very sad pandas because of their backwardness. I used to be a member of the Anglican Church in a non-Sydney diocese and nearly every clergy member I met was pro-same sex marriage, women’s ordination, etc. (I left the church for reasons unrelated to the church itself.) Sydney Diocese basically wishes it was Hillsong with fancy churches instead of stadiums. There are some parishes within Sydney Diocese which are more like those outside if you look hard, but the influence of the ultra conservative Moore College is overwhelming.
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Colin August 28, 2012
Surely ‘protect’ should fall under mutual responsibility? I don’t really see that gender should have much to do at all with allocating vows. Couples can/should just make their own between them.
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Lydia August 28, 2012
I know this is an awful, retrograde step, but let’s just get a bit of sense going here: we are talking about the Sydney diocese. It’s been hard conservative for years, and everyone in the Anglican Church would know that. Most other dioceses in Australia would find this as abominable as non-Anglicans have. They would simply ignore it – and, if a couple wishes to be married in an Anglican Church, they should go to another one! And discuss the service with their Priest – most are actually quite open to discussion about all of these things. And there are very progressive Anglican churches where they will include other stuff in the service – e.g. even incorporating ideas from other faiths etc. But, shhhhhh! Don’t tell the idiots in Sydney….!!!
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Lydia August 28, 2012
Sorry, I didn’t see Aulos’s post above – yes, I think that’s correct, Sydney is more like the conservative US churches. Not a lot to do with Anglicanism as it is practised in most other places.
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Anna August 28, 2012
I am a little curious. I wrote a comment about the reason the word “submit” is used but it’s not turned up. Any reason for that?
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Lisa August 28, 2012
Twenty one years ago when hubby and I were married we took the word obey out of our wedding vows. Submit!!, it’s 2012. Ha Ha.
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Glenis August 28, 2012
I did not submit or obey 32 years ago and I would not do it today either. I have had a long and happy marriage and it is all about give and take or as my husband sees it……happy wife, happy life!
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SandsOfTime August 28, 2012
I’ve been away from Australia for quite a while but even so, I’m surprised to see that it is now 1952 in some parts of the country!
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Rhoda August 29, 2012
If you are following what is going on in the US you will get it. The churches are trying to take us back to the dark ages. They are losing control and want it back.
The battle for equality won’t be won until religion is out of the equation. I beg pardon to all those who are deeply religious still. To me religion is a leftover from the dark ages.
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will m September 8, 2012
WEDDING VOW HYSTERIA
Why doesn’t the church use the word “respect” rather than “submit” in wedding vows?
After much reading and reflection this week I have noted the Bible says in Ephesians 5:33 “a husband must love his wife and a wife must respect her husband”.
So perhaps when it comes to wedding vows the word “respect” is a better word than “submit”. Now after all the hysteria this week surely no-one is going to get their knickers in a
knot by suggesting wives ought to respect their husbands and that husbands ought to respect their wives. Or that they are supposed to love one another for that matter. I certainly hope not.So having established some common ground (that is, we are all ok with a husband and a wife loving and respecting one another) isn’t it interesting that in Ephesians 5:33 that God specifically instructs the husband to love, and the wife to respect?
So that leaves me, and I hope many others, pondering whether it’s possible that, generally speaking, a woman desires love more than respect and a man desires respect more than love. At this point its important to acknowledge we all need love and respect and perhaps some individual men and some individual women may more highly esteem these values the other way around.
Having said that I believe that God knows that which God created extremely well and therefore in this passage our Creator is giving wise instruction on how to meet the others needs based on God given attributes.
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gengen September 13, 2012
will m are you serious? On much reflection I note that the bible is a story book, that is suited to the time it was written.
As a young feminist woman and mother of a daughter I am scared by the backward steps we are taking in 2012 for women, men and equality in marriage.
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Ella September 24, 2012
This is another example why I refuse to belong to ANY church. I believe in God and have a faith, but its not in any church.
