GET GOD OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS
For God’s sake, please get out of our schools.
That’s the plea from parents who are taking landmark action against churches indoctrinating their kids. They claim it’s a breach of the Equal Opportunity Act.
“For many of these kids, it’s the first time they experience discrimination,” according to Scott Hedges from the group, Fairness in Religion in Schools.
My first memory of school is one of segregation. Once a week, I was left in an empty classroom because I wasn’t of the right faith.
The practice continues to this day.
In most states, religious instruction is compulsory.
If parents opt out, their children are given nothing to do. This is valuable teaching time.
My girlfriend Lisa was horrified to find her five-year-old’s colouring-in during scripture was on the theme of creationism.
“I wish they were teaching her more useful stuff, but I don’t want to take her out of scripture class because she might be ostracised,” she lamented.
When my seven-year-old started talking about how God made the birds and the bees, I countered with Darwin’s theory of evolution.
“Well Mum, you stick to your theory and I’ll stick to mine’!” he replied defiantly.
In NSW, the former Labor government brought in ethics classes as an alternative to scripture but their future is threatened by a bill introduced into the upper house by the Christian Democrats.
Instead of voting against the bill, the current Liberal government referred it to a parliamentary committee.
And it’s not just conservative governments singing from the same hymn sheet.
While the Howard government brought in the National School Chaplaincy Program, the Rudd government boosted funding to $220 million a year.
Evangelical activists are being paid by the government to convert children to Christianity.
As ACCESS Ministries’ CEO Canon Evonne Paddison said in 2008, “Our goal is to reach every child in Victoria with the transforming love of God. Through Christian Religious Education we aim to reach 80 per cent of primary school children by 2012.”
Scary stuff, especially when you consider many of the school chaplains are unqualified.
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179 Responses to this article
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Kath Morris February 16, 2012
This is a subject close to my heart as my son when in primary school challenged the scripture teacher by saying he could see good in the Buddhist teachings. Well what happened next was scary: she singled him out and told him it was nonsense, and he shouldn’t believe in such things and proceeded with a “fire & brimstone” rant directed at my son. He walked out. When I spoke to the Principal, she was sympathetic but powerless to take any action. This was in a NSW public school. If schools have to teach religious study then teach the kids about all religions then we might start to understand the world a bit better.
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John February 16, 2012
If you don’t want them to learn christianity do not send them to the christian schools it simple. Why do the other have to left out if they want to learn about god and jesus. If you whant youre children to learn about fairies send them to a fairy school. If you are a jehova witness send you children to a johova witness school don’tsend them to a christian school. Youre choise!!!
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John February 16, 2012
Public schools are not religius school keep the religion out. If I want to take my children to church I will take them I don’t need a public school taking them their. I have views and children have views why force them with religion if going to a public school!!!
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Alice Shaw February 16, 2012
Public schools are not “christian schools”.
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warthog February 16, 2012
Secular government schools i.e. Public Schools are not christian schools. You’re right, if you want your kids to be indoctrinated into a particular religion, you can send them to whatever school you wish. This means that if you just want your kids to learn about the real world, you should be able to send them to Public Schools free of fairy tales.
Oh, and jehova’s witnesses are christians. The name sort of gives it away…
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Natasha February 17, 2012
Thank you for reinforcing my long-held thought that perhaps… Christian schools should concentrate a little more on spelling and grammar.
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karen February 16, 2012
Here!Here! My daughter had a similar experience at a local NSW State Primary School… and I can tell you how she and I were treated was not Christian-like at all! Seemed to me to it was the teachers own agenda and believes that were more important in this case. The “non-scripture class” was regularly started with “just because your parents dont want you to go to scripture doesnt mean you dont need to know about compassion and empathy’… REALLY!!! Because I took umbridge at this I was made to come before the head mistress and apologise to her and that teacher who had insulted all the parents of those children, another REALLY!!! Despite no scripture classes, my daughter has grown into one of the most compassionate and empathetic people I know.
I thought the Goverment of our free country originally established State Schools to set apart education and religion… if you wanted religion taught to your child, you sent them to a school run by the church of your choice. How can we knock this on the head and re-establish our State Schools as they were intended??? Oooohhh, yourve got me going now
Thanx Tracy for being so brave. -
bonnieb2 February 16, 2012
Hi, I just joined and your comment is so very true (to my way of thinking). My husband is Jewish and I am Protestant Christian and started my early life as a Baptist, but I don’t cling to a label anymore. I lived in Australia and Singapore. Some friends got together and saw the movie on Buddha. Some very close resemblances to the life of Christ. I totally agree that all religions should be taught in school. My son-in-law presented a speech on Anti-semitism last night in a local Synagogue. I talked to my husband about it as the focus of the speech was on the growth of Muslims in colleges in the U.S. How they are spreading untruths regarding the Jews beliefs, etc. It just occurred to me that it seems all religions have been diluted and divided, many no-denominational churches springing up. There are Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed Jewish Temples and Synagogues in our area of Texas. My husband is Reformed, which just means (as I see it) that the traditions have been diluted. So personally I see that the only real difference is Protestants believe the Messiah (Jesus) has already appeared on earth…and the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. They only truly revere the first 5 books of the Bible (Old Testament) Protestants believe in both books (New & Old)…the family differences are a problem because everyone is on a different level of religion (both Jew & Protestant) but it usually revolves around all the holidays…which are so not important in my book….way over-rated! To me religion is within our hearts. Muslims it appears to me…on a whole are sticking with their religion and/or traditions without much variation! So, it is a religion that is flourishing all over the world…which is scary to me! I prefer a religion that Jesus taught which is Love….not anger against those who do not follow the same religion as theirs. Just my thoughts.
Bonnieb2-
warthog February 16, 2012
There are different islamic denominations, just like christianity although islam is not as fractured.
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Glen February 16, 2012
I completely agree, why do we still have this “special” hour in the public school system paid for with public purse? Are we a secular state or just 97% secular? Whay can’t we leave specific faith teaching to churches & sunday school. General Religion & Ethics, sure, but specific religious seperation is segregation. It’s divisive, it’s close mindedness & it’s not what we need for our children in the 21st century public school system.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Glen, 80% of kids in our State schools are Christians. Take them out of the public education system and you have a major crisis in education on your hands.
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Rod February 16, 2012
You’re very wrong Wendy.
Firstly Glen wasn’t suggesting taking anyone out of public schools, just that any religious “instruction” should be done somewhere else, out of school time.
Secondly children should not be considered christian just because their parents call themselves that – they should be given a proper education and then encouraged to decide for themselves when they are old enough to understand.
Third not even 80% of parents are christian – as in actually going to church. And being a good person or having good morals doesn’t mean they are christian.-
WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
But then I wonder why parents opt to send their kids to ‘scripture’ classes then – it is their choice you know?
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Allan February 16, 2012
it is not their choice. the only choice they have is to ‘opt out’ and many are scared to do so for the ostracising of their children by others
Religion is not needed in state schools, and if they are to teach religion, it should be about all religions not just a 1950s evangelistic view of catholicism by untrained volunteers.
I dont mind what type of Relgion [Belief System] people believe but I do take offence to it being jammed down peoples throats under the guise of ‘education’ especially to children who are too young to decide which religion is suitable for them if any. they are a captive audience.
Educate not brainwash!!
By the way , I was baptised a catholic but through my life experiences I have come to the conclusion that it is not suitable for me.
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Marty February 16, 2012
Percentages are irrelevant. Schools are for academics – church is for religion. Religion is not academic, nor is academia religious.
You also said, Wendy, “And when they are older, Rod, who is going to tell them all that they need to know about each and every one of the many and wonderful religions there are out there so that they can make up their minds about it?”
But if all they learn in school is Christianity, how will they ever even learn about the other religions to have fair and reasonable grounds to decide if any one of them are worth their time?
Don’t confuse your idea of what people should believe with what constitutes as academic learning. I put to you that you, too, are an atheist. The difference between us is that I believe in one less deity than you. When you understand why you reject all the other possible deities that are out their for our children to choose from, then you’ll understand why I, and many others, reject yours.
ESPECIALLY in public academia.
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WENDY GREEN February 17, 2012
Sport is not academia – would you have us take sport out of the curriculum too?
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Marty February 18, 2012
Sport, that is a subject combining physical education in class and physical practice playing sport outside, teaches health. I learnt about anatomy for the first time in “sport.” Religion, however, made me feel guilty about my body. Because of what I learned in “sport” (PE) I stopped feeling guilty.
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Debbie February 16, 2012
We don’t want kids out of the school system. We want CHAPLAINS out of the school system!!
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Geoff February 17, 2012
Where on earth do you get these figures from? Possibly 80% of kids come from a judeo-christian heritage (ie, western European) – that doesn’t mean they’re christian. Children are not old enough to make this judgement – that’s the right of their parents. State-funded and state-run schools should not be putting one religion above any others in our secular society. Either teach them all, or teach none.
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WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
Geoff, I’m only saying that when scripture classes are on – usually for less than one hour once a week – 80% of children go to the classes.
I get my information from the Diocesan Director of SRE in my Diocese in NSW.
The kids only go to scripture because their parents have identified themselves as Christian on the child’s enrolment form.
If the majority of parents pulled their kids out of scripture classes, then scripture classes would stop. We live in a democracy and so the majority rules. We don’t see this happening I think because the majority of parents are happy for their kids to go to scripture.-
Mike March 5, 2012
Or they get put in scripture classes irrespective of parental choices. And if no one knows what to do with you then they assume C of E, which becomes like a special needs class while the teachers go off for a cigarette break.
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Meredith Doig February 16, 2012
Good on you Tracey for telling it like it is.
Parents may not yet realise that what they may have experienced at school is NOT what’s going on now.
Aggressive evangelists are targetting our government schools and we all have to raise the public’s awareness about this.
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Craig February 16, 2012
There are very many churches and other religious organisations around. If people what their kids to have religious education they can send them to one.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
… and our education system would collapse with the withdrawal of 80% of the students who are Christians.
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warthog February 16, 2012
I’d love to know where you got your 80% from wendy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
According to the 2006 census, only 65% of australians declared themselves at least ‘nominally christian’. If only a quarter are churchgoers (16.25%), then taking 80% of the christian, churchgoing kids out of school would be only taking 12% of the total population. Didn’t they teach maths and research skills at your school?
Of course, nobody wants to take kids away from school. All that is being said is that the kids should not be indoctrinated into ANY religion in public schools. i.e. take the religion away from school.
Let them learn about the real world in peace and brainwash them in your own time.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
80% of students attending State schools attend scripture classes each week.
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warthog February 16, 2012
Are ALL scripture classes christian, then?
The reasons that the kids on non-religious parents go to scripture include fear of ostracism, lack of supervision and the simple fact that it is an opt-out system. Many parents don’t even realise they have a choice.
I went to scripture as a kid and was told there that my family were baal worshippers (by a catholic) because they are russian orthodox. My parents didn’t know that and wouldn’t have sent me if they knew that this sort of thing would happen. Judging by this comment thread, it is a common experience.
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ross clennett February 16, 2012
Hear, hear, Tracey. Superstition has no place in our schools. Schools should be about evidence-based learning, not about unsubstantiated opinions, theories and beliefs, regardless of how long those beliefs have been around for. As Tracey rightly says ‘I want my children to make up their own mind’.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
“Evidence based learning” … ?
Then lets kick out all references to evolution – there are more gaps in the theory of evolution than in Wendy Harmer’s fish net stockings!!! (Sorry Wendy : )
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warthog February 16, 2012
Now we know you’re ignorant.
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Marty February 16, 2012
This comment demonstrates exactly how a religiously-biased education can cloud academia. There is STACKS of evidence in support of the theory of evolution. Just because you choose to believe in fiction without doing your own fact checking doesn’t mean the evidence doesn’t exist. It just means that you have thus far ignored it.
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WENDY GREEN February 17, 2012
Can you explain how a human being ‘evolved’ from a fish? And if they did, why do we still have fish?
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Marty February 18, 2012
Yes, I can, but not in a little comment box here. Seriously, though, it’s not that hard to learn for yourself. You’re the teacher – act like one.
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Royce February 19, 2012
Humans evolved from a fish? Wow….. I understand why your arguments aren’t working too well. You you don’t have much understanding of the basics.
Sigh… Just to help you out. IF something evolved from a fish…. the original ‘fish’ need not be extinct. But… I guess that won’t make much sense?
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WENDY GREEN February 19, 2012
You’re right of course, I am a fool and I may not be able to put my argument very well, but the theory of evolution still doesn’t go anywhere near explaining how life began …
Didn’t Darwin say there must have been a murky pool of gases that lightening struck to (magically) make the first cell appear or something like that? Well, where did the lightening come from and what about that murky pool? The concept is too fantastically vague and I have always objected to my children being fed such bunkum. -
Alex February 20, 2012
Wow, you are scary. When the English founded America, did they disappear?
You are very ignorant, to discount evolution is to deny science. Science lead to the development of the computer you are using now, so if you don’t believe in evolution, please go live in a cave with your superstitious beliefs
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Debbie February 16, 2012
That is a bare-faced lie. The evidence for evolution by natural selection is irrefutable and creationists really need to stop pretending that debate on evolution as fact didn’t end a long time ago.
It doesn’t matter how much you deny it in favour of blind faith in a religious myth, the theory of evolution doesn’t become any less true. You can also deny the theory of gravity, but it won’t make you float away.
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WENDY GREEN February 17, 2012
Even the scientists agree there are inexplicable gaps in the theory; we have just been brought up on a diet of theory as fact and we have all believed it.
You know Darwin only spent 6 weeks in the Galapagos Is when he was in his early twenty’s – not very long to come up with such a radical idea, was it?-
Marty February 18, 2012
Actually, it takes but a moment to think of a new idea – a moment of epiphany or inspiration. Took him a lot longer to forge his theories. Since then, the evidence found has begun to support his theories.
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Royce February 19, 2012
Oh dear…..
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Noni February 17, 2012
The difference? A scientist is willing to be proved wrong. A theist is not.
Go away and learn how to use real statistics, and how science actually works.
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Royce February 19, 2012
Confusing….. the evolution THEORY is based on evidence. That’s how Darwin and others came to have the theory.
It may not be true. That is how science works. It is most likely to be true based on the evidence, certainly a lot more likely than theories based on ancient often conflicting stories.
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James Kenny February 16, 2012
I come from a Catholic family background and as a child in a state primary school used to quite enjoy the weekly RI session, more as a history buff than from a religious standpoint. After the instructor found out I was Catholic, my brother and I found ourselves sitting alone in the school hall with nothing to do for the hour. It was the first time I’d been forced to think about the role religion plays in our lives. By the time I started high school I was a committed atheist, helped in no small part by the stupidity and bigotry of my original RI teacher.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Thankfully now, there are Catholic Special Religious Education teachers in just about all public schools – who must be trained and qualified before they teach your children. It’s a pity Christians don’t always see Catholics as ‘one of them’ – perhaps I’m glad they don’t in your case …
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Allan February 16, 2012
In a simple answer.
Not True-
WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Can you please qualify that Alan?
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Sue Goss February 16, 2012
Apart from dividing kids through fear of being different, these untrained teachers are telling the kids lies, especially about the beginning of the world. They are not allowed to question of discuss evolution and the future of science, research, independent thinking is being completely repressed by this crazy bunch of people. No wonder the uptake of science in secondary schools is so low. Kids have been told it’s a myth in primary school. And they believe it as in the article. Surely God gave us brains to develop beyond primitive tribes?
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Sorry Sue – I can’t let this one go without a ‘defence’ …
I can only speak for the Catholic SRE teachers but we have to have training before we can go into the State Schools. And we only go in to support our Catholic parents in the extension of the beliefs they are trying to pass on to their own children. There are also State and Commonwealth laws that have to be respected and we are taught about those and have to comply with them. These people are the salt of the earth with no hidden agendas, they only want to support their Bishop in the religious education that the parents are asking for.
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MC February 16, 2012
Wendy, “that the parents ask for”?? What?? We athiest/agnostic parents don’t ask for this rot in our public school system. It is forced upon us by outdated laws. We don’t want this for our kids and are then forced to remove them from the classroom causing the potential for derision and children being ostracised. Be careful Wendy, your agenda is showing. And it’s not a pretty sight.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
I can only speak for Catholics and we don’t teach “The Rapture” or anything like that. Again, parents should ask the scripture teacher what they are teaching and if they don’t like it then remove the child.
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Noni February 17, 2012
Do you teach that being gay is wrong, Wendy?
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WENDY GREEN February 17, 2012
In the curriculum we use, we do not cover a person’s sexuality in the programme.
However, we do teach that God loves everyone no matter who they are. We also emphasise strongly that every single person is unique and specially made by God.
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Allan February 16, 2012
I have to agree with you Sue on that
Parents ask for it??
If wendy is right, then why is that most parents are saying the opposite.Hmmm strange
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Alan, I can only speak for the Catholics.
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Marty February 16, 2012
Technically, you can really only speak for yourself.
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Alberto Rosso February 16, 2012
A few years ago when my youngest daughter was eight she came home one day in a panic because she was concerned that our family would be “left behind” when the Rapture, which was described as imminent, happened.
On investigation I found out that RE for non-RCs in the western Sydney public school was wholly in the control of the local Baptist church since none of the other denominations could provide any volunteers. Baptist teachings are, even to some other Christians, bordering on cult and our local Baptist church’s teaching are among the more extreme offered by that denomination.
We were quick to remove our daughter from RE and received an apology from the school and a commitment that non-mainstream teachings such as the Rapture would not be included in RE classes in the future.
The main issue is that there is no requirement for the providers of RE to provide, either to the school or parents. any outlines of what they propose to teach to the children. Nor is there any requirement for schools to advise parents who is providing RE.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
That’s right, Alberto, it’s the parent’s responsibility to find these things out themselves. And I’d encourage ALL parents to ask their scripture teacher to provide an outline of what they intend teaching their children at the beginning of every year.
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Royce February 19, 2012
‘It’s the parent’s responsibility’….
Sadly the real world doesn’t produce an aweful lot of these parents. Most just trust the school to do its job and don’t feel able to question what goes on.
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David February 16, 2012
I’m a NZer and the whole concept of religious instruction in schools seems archaic and, frankly, repulsive. My 3yr old daughter has spent most of her life here, but I think I might have to take her back to NZ when she’s ready for school. I’d prefer her education to be reality-based.
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Inga February 16, 2012
Well said Tracey! I am non religious but was happy in the beginning to go along with it, until after a RE class, my daughter asked me if it was OK to lip sync “Jesus loves me more than my family” when singing a Xmas Carol taught by the RE teacher.
I also realised they were teaching the story of Noah’s ark as fact. Needless to say I had a talk about this myth with my daughter and explained to her that the RE teacher was wrong. It wasn’t easy as she already thought her teacher was telling her the truth. Who are these people to place kids and parents in this position? Once she was ‘opted out” she joined 2 other kids and was sent to the library or to the back of a different class. I was uneasy about “opting out” as it felt she would feel segregated but luckily my daughter felt that was better solution than being told myths as fact.
I hope FIRIS and Ron Williams’ challenge is successful and restore what public schools should be all about, teaching the school curriculum and not a place for indoctrination. -
Tracey February 16, 2012
My children attend a catholic primary school and are obviously taught religion. I’ve got no idea what version of religion is being taught in the public school system but in the catholic system it is the basic morals that we would like all people to display, ie. forgiveness, understanding, tolerance and acceptance. I wasn’t even aware that public schools were taught religion as one would assume that it is a ‘choice’ and surely if you wanted your child to learn a religion you would either send them to a school appropriate for that religion (be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist) or undertake religious studies outside of school.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
There has been religious education in State schools since 1952. it is always the parent’s choice to send their children – it is NOT compulsory.
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PIrra February 20, 2012
Actually Wendy, having a choice means there is an alternative, when no alternative is supplied, that does tend to take the ‘choice’ option away from parents.
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Tracey February 16, 2012
My children attend a catholic primary school and are obviously taught religion. I’ve got no idea what version of religion is being taught in the public school system but in the catholic system it is the basic morals that we would like all people to display, ie. forgiveness, understanding, tolerance and acceptance. I wasn’t even aware that public schools were taught religion as one would assume that it is a ‘choice’ and surely if you wanted your child to learn a religion you would either send them to a school appropriate for that religion (be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist) or undertake religious studies outside of school.
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Gabriele February 16, 2012
Thanks Tracey!
Our children have been attending school where Christian education is in the curriculum and no alternatives are offered.
As a non-religious family with equal respect for all religions, we have two options:1. Not withdraw our children from the christian education so they can attend it with the rest of the class. We would then need to explain that the provided education is belief driven, rather than factual. By doing this, we would contradict and discredit what is being taught at school. This would be quite confusing for the children.
2. Exclude our children from the Christian education and the rest of their friends during these periods. They will then feel excluded and would be seen as an outsider by the friends. Young hcildren would obviously not understand why they would not be allowed to participate.
Neither option is acceptable. Unacceptable is also that a family with kids in the public schooling system should be forced to choose between them.As long as public schools are allowed to teach specific religious views, we strongly suggest they should also be required to provide suitable alternatives to it, such as ethics or general religious study. We have proposed this to the Principle of the school as a voluntary addition to its curriculum. This proposal has however not been acted upon.
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Catherine February 16, 2012
I’m in NSW & I just sent my submission to the Ethics Inquiry Committee. I’ve volunteered to teach the ethics course at our primary school. I have three kids at primary school, and I’m atheist. At SRE my kids have been taught that their mother is going to hell, they’ve been asked to pray for the son of the scripture teacher who was in jail, and that they need to tell their little friends about Jesus. When I moved my kids to non-scripture and told my daughter that, by policy, she was to receive no instruction there, she cried, saying it is wrong to stop children from learning at school. I agree with her.
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Sandra February 16, 2012
Nearly thirteen years ago I removed my children from RI in their state school and explained to them it was because they weren’t teaching about different religions but their sole belief.Which everyone has a right too but it should be a choice.They did get a couple of comments about ‘heathen sole mothers’ but that just reinforced the idea to them.I’m happy to say they grew up well adjusted and one starts uni this week in Psychological sciences.
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vee February 16, 2012
We were just talking about this issue at home the other day. I grew up in a non-religious household, but thanks to religion in public schools (even when I attended non-scripture) , I have collected an extraordinary number of bibles?! Does anyone else still have the bible specially printed for school kids as part of the 1988 bicentennial? Or get a free bible when they started Year 7?
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Mary February 16, 2012
Aren’t some of the teachings of Jesus/God about love, tolerance and acceptance. Would these RI instructors like their child to be treated or spoken to in such a manner by someone who disagreed with their belief or right to ask questions about something they had trouble understanding. Some stuff in the Bible requires a great deal of faith to believe it without question, and not everyone can do that. Ethics teach children among other things, to question decisions they make and the results of those decisions, why people might do what they do(bulling etc), how they should expect to be treated by others (including being tolerant of someone’s beliefs even if you don’t agree) and visa versa, without bias intentionally or unintentionally. Surely Churches/religons can’t be against this. Schools want to be able to offer both so families have a choice. If the churches are secure in their future why the panic/fear about it. This sort of reaction doesn’t bring people to church. It tells me that they don’t like people to think for themselves.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
ALL of Jesus’ teachings are about love and forgiveness.
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warthog February 16, 2012
matthew 10:34
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
So that’s where all the mother-in-law jokes come from … the Bible! Go figure?!
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blue February 16, 2012
When I was about 7 I came home from school completely terrified that I was going to ‘hell.’ “Hell’ was this new place I had heard about that day in a Church of England (now known as Anglican) scripture class. At home I was always being told I was bad or naughty so now I was convinced I would go to hell. I was lying paralysed by fear on my bed for hours — visions of that place called hell going through my head. I can’t remember what it was the scripture ‘teacher’ told us about hell but it must have been a full horror story because I was certainly traumatised by it. I remember my father coming into my room and when I told him what I was scared of he told me there was no hell. He was emphatic about it and I chose to believe him. But for hours I’d been frozen with fear? Why would anyone think doing that to a 7 year old was a good thing? I was extremely traumatized by it.
And that parents did not buck the school system in those days was to see me suffer through 6 more years of weekly scripture classes. Until I was confirmed into the Church of England faith — given no choice by my mother and godmother. After that day I never attended a church service again.
Except for weddings and funerals when I have to go.
Although I love visiting old churches and graveyards. I still look forward to visiting a mosque and a synagogue one day. But that’s the love of history in me.
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Fran February 16, 2012
Parents from schools in NSW and Queensland have been battling the insidious spread of religion in our public schools. Investigations into who is actually teaching religion in our schools uncover a few extreme but well-organised religious organisations. It is disgusting that the Federal Government is aiding these groups in their aims of converting young and impressionable minds by supplying vast amounts of public money to provide “Chaplains” (not necessarily with any qualifications) to assist “student welfare”. Most parents are unaware that these people are in our public schools in daily contact with our children, let alone know that a considerable number of these Chaplains are from extreme religious/cult groups. It is not safe to assume that in the schools where a “student welfare office/counsellor” has been employed under the funding instead of a Chaplain at the school’s request, that this person is not from the same extreme religious organisation. These organisations have been quick to adapt to an increasing number of schools requesting non-religious welfare officers over Chaplains under the government funding by training their “Chaplains in waiting” as non-religious student welfare officers. (Checking these non-religious applicants you may discover that they do indeed run a small church at their home!). It is about time that the Australian media woke up to what is going on across our country in our public schools and started screaming about it – basically government sponsored conversion of our kids to extreme and often-cult like religions.
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Leonie February 16, 2012
Thankyou Tracey for your contribution to this issue. My daughter’s introduction to religion was to see the chaos that our family was thrown into after I worked for a company owned by a woman who is head of a christian primary school. My colleagues and I were owed sums ranging from $35K – $50K and it has been a long and stressful process to take legal action to attempt to recover some of our losses. All the while, this woman continues to teach ‘religion, including ‘though shalt not steal’ to innocent children. After starting prep last week, I really hope my daughter doesn’t encounter such a hypocrite in her school.
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Virginia February 16, 2012
Oh yes, sure, being taught the principles of the wisest most wonderful created being to ever walk the face of this earth whose message was love and forgiveness and treating everyone equally is SOOOO harmful to children isnt it! In some cases scripture classes is the only place they will get these life lessons as some kids sure dont get it at home. I enjoyed scripture day not just because I was into it but because it was interesting and yes EDUCATIONAL and mind expanding, to have that opportunity to discuss other kids’ religions with them as it would come up because you would see different kids would go to different rooms including friends, so one would be curious and ask questions.
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Royce February 16, 2012
the wisest most wonderful created being to ever walk the face of this earth whose message was love and forgiveness and treating everyone equally is SOOOO harmful
Agreed… if such a being had existed. With respect to those who blindly believe, we don’t need rational families pressured to take on the fantasies.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Jesus is an historical figure – he really did exist – any historian/archeologist worth their salt will tell you that. The sticking point for a lot of people is whether or not He rose from the dead.
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warthog February 16, 2012
…and almost everything else about him. There is more controversy about his historicity than you let on, such as…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Interestingly, all of the historians I’ve read who support the historicity of Jesus are christians. I wonder what that could mean?
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
I don’t use wikipedia if I want to be certain of my facts.
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warthog February 16, 2012
OK, then – how about http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
or
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html
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Royce February 19, 2012
Ah…. if you state something and use terms like ‘worth his salt’ that magically makes it true.
Yep… that’s how religion works. Please share with us the document from the date of the birth of Christ that in some way established an historic evidence of existence….
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WENDY GREEN February 19, 2012
Those interested might like to reference Tacitus (55-120AD) – particularly his “Annuls”, also Lucien of Samosata (2nd Century), Flavius Josephus (37-100AD), and even the Jewish Talmud. All these authors are NOT Christians and in fact were writing to refute the divinity of Jesus Christ – they weren’t denying His existence, just His divinity.
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Joni February 16, 2012
Well said. So much Bible information is invaluable to children who would never get exposure to this otherwise.
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Kate February 16, 2012
I had no concerns about taking my children out of RE in primary school. I am not religious and they were teaching about Adam and Eve, which to me was absurd. I wanted my children to learn about all religions as we live in a multi cultural country. The more they understood other peoples faiths the more understanding they may be of these cultures. Thankfully their school provided them with computers with maths games so they were at least being productive when RE was being taken. My girls are now 16 and 18 and very well rounded, respectful people with good values and morals who did not need RE to teach them this. They are also educated in aspects of many religions due to family discussion. Religion is not the responsibility of public schools.
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MG February 16, 2012
Excitement about new Horoscopes but horror at God, hmmm!!!!!
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Joni February 16, 2012
Interesting viewpoints…
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Royce February 16, 2012
Yes MG…. I hadn’t noticed your response…. How weird? Tut tutting about wierdo religo fantasies and then trumpeting similar horiscope rubbish for Hoopla!!
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Ronnie February 16, 2012
Hi,
I’ve written about this concern on other sites, as I’m passionately against RI in schools. As a retired public teacher, 27 years in service, I have seen a wide variety of scripture classes.
Like many teachers I’m against religious instruction being given in state schools and pro ethic classes.
Parents should know they are entitled to take their children out of scripture and when enrolling should not put a religion on the enrolment form.
Frustratingly we are forbidden to teach during scripture and are only allowed to supervise those not attending.
Also the religious instructors are not teachers and I’ve overheard some appalling bigotry coupled with silly student behaviour. Apparently even the wrath of God doesn’t scare some children. Unfortunately others have been frightened by the dogma, resulting in some littlies fearing for their parents and teachers in the supposed after-life.
Parents should demand that ethics classes be taught in all state schools. The lessons clearly demonstrate that morality is not owned by religion and help to develop tolerance. Which is something that some scripture folk seem to be sadly lacking. -
Royce February 16, 2012
And then HOOPLA has HORISCOPES for the weak brained [just as susceptable as kids].
What a pity that this site has to take on crap.
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Joni February 16, 2012
I noticed that too…….”Horrorscopes” are in, Religion out. Ignore the contribution Christianity has made to society.
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Allan February 16, 2012
the inquisition and crusades
Great contribution to the world
NOT!
Religion is just faith/hope twisted with Beliefs, rules, control by fear and a hieracheral structure to control the masses.Faith is beautiful if it helps people through hard times and the like.
Religion is a crock.
I’ve been through enough in my lifetime to find this out
The worst phrase to ever be uttered is “god does not give you more than what you can handle”Keep religion at the schools with their demonination that will teach to the people that want that religious instruction.
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warthog February 16, 2012
Tell me, what are the contributions that christianity has made to society?
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
The Westminster system of government is based on Christianity is it not?
In Australia, the first schools of any sort were Christian schools – the children were getting NO education prior to this, so without the early Christians in this country it would have been a very long time before education became a priority for the struggling colony and we were able to give our kids the skills they needed to lift themselves out of poverty.
Many hospitals have been established by Christians.
Many refuges for the homeless and down-and-out have been established by the Christian churches.
Where would we be without the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, St Vincent de Paul and Anglicare?
Do I need to go on?-
Rod February 16, 2012
Our system of government is based on democracy – an Ancient Greek idea from BC.
Good people have established schools, hospitals, etc. Many were Christians because that was the dominant religion of the time and place. They could equally have been Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists etc, or atheists,and they would still have been good people and still done good things.
Red Cross is non-religious. So are Medicin Sans Frontiers, Oxfam, and many other great charities. -
WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Our system of government is based on the English Westminster system which states, amongst other things, that an essential feature is a ‘constitutional monarch’. Did they have constitutional monarchs in BC? And doesn’t our constitutional monarch head the Anglican Church? That is, Queen Elizabeth is God’s representative on earth in the Anglican mindset (and in her own, I believe!).
I’m sorry Rod that you feel the only way to debate this issue is to make personal attacks on my belief system.
There is a place for all of us to have a voice here.
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Rod February 16, 2012
I’ve had enough Wendy. I’ll leave it to others to decide whether I’ve been personally attacking you or denying you a say in the conversation. Sweet dreams
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SandsofTime February 16, 2012
I think the site is about a broad range of opinions, is it not? Well that’s just my opinion….
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Karin February 16, 2012
For those who defend christianity and religion as being ethical, wholesome and good – perhaps you can focus your minds on the all the religious wars the world has endured and continues to endure, the individual religious fanatics blowing up innocent people, the pope blessing the italian troops as they went off into battle, the extreme harm done to people by religious cults. On balance religion (of all types) has been a curse to the people of this planet. Why would we want to encourage innocent and impressionable children to believe in something that has done so much harm ?
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
What would you have your children believe in then Karin?
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Tess February 16, 2012
I would not have my children believe in a religion which does all it can to cover up systematic rape and abuse of children.
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WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
The crimes you mention are horrific – there is no denying that.
Consider this though: the same crimes have been committed by teachers; would you exclude your children from school in case one of the teachers is a pedofile?
Doctors and nurses have also been accused of sexual misconduct with adults and children, would you have us avoiding these professions as well?
These shocking, inexcusable acts have been committed by individuals who can only be called the worst of the worst of our society. They do not represent Christianity anymore than a teacher represents education.
The fact that the churches have handled these criminals badly seems to reflect their own naive inability to deal with such atrocities.
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Tess February 19, 2012
It is unlikely there was anything naive in the Catholic Church’s ongoing attempts to cover up child rape and assault.
It is likely that anyone who believes it was naivety is either very naive themselves, or led by blind unquestioning faith.
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warthog February 16, 2012
How about the truth, backed up by real evidence?
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Karin February 20, 2012
So Wendy, I’m not sure that “belief” is such a desirable thing. “Belief” is touted by religious people as not requiring any reason or questioning or the necessity of proof. My children don’t need that. What they need is a clear understanding of right and wrong, not found in religion but in secular ethics. Mankind needs to rise above religion and our children should be taught the difference between unprovable faith and belief and the scientific evidence in front them. And no, religion is not the reason there are good people in the world – rather the opposite.
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WENDY GREEN March 6, 2012
So Karin, I’m curious … how do you explain life to your kids?
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Sonia February 16, 2012
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to have time in class devoted to ethics that allowed for open discussion and didn’t discriminate against anyone on the basis of faith. I can’t believe we don’t do this already as part of the curriculum instead of allowing our kids exposure to unqualified volunteers with their own agendas. Politics lacking common sense due to special interest lobbying yet again *sigh*
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warthog February 16, 2012
This is exactly what happened in NSW. There was a hugely successful trial of ethics classes run for kids who’s parents opted them out of RI. Sadly but predictably, good ol’ christian Freddy Nile squashed them…
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/godless-ethics-led-to-nazism–nile-20110805-1iepq.html
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Debbie February 16, 2012
I would like to see not just ethics classes, but also classes on critical thinking skills. People who think well have no trouble figuring out the right thing to do.
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Joni February 16, 2012
The most confirmed atheist parents at our children’s Public schools told me that they allowed their children to attend Scripture because they felt that so much History. Literature, Art, Politics etc was based on the Bible. I think Scripture should stay.
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julie February 16, 2012
Chaplains have been brought into public schools at the expense of educational psychologists. ie instead of kids and families getting the professional help0 they need they are copping religious indoctrination- paid for by the government. Shame.
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Maggie February 16, 2012
If you want religious teachings in schools there are many religious schools to choose from covering any religion you might choose. The money spent on school chaplaincy would be better spent on school counsellors.
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Harry February 16, 2012
If you want to learn about the effects of the bible on History, Art, Literature, Politics etc then you need a comparative religion class taught by a qualified teacher instead of a compulsory indoctrination session taken by an unqualified nutbag.
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Rod February 16, 2012
Thanks for adding your sanity to this battle Tracy. It’s long past time we got this divisive nonsense activity out of our public schools. Certainly teach kids how to discuss and decide ethical questions, but that doesn’t require religion. As for religious beliefs, give them a general understanding of the wide variety of world views held in our society. Any specific “instruction” (indoctrination?) should be done at home or at a religious organisation. When they are older they should be allowed to choose for themselves what to believe, and should be accepted and loved whatever their choice.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
And when they are older, Rod, who is going to tell them all that they need to know about each and every one of the many and wonderful religions there are out there so that they can make up their minds about it?
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Rod February 16, 2012
When they are at school they should get an overview of the main religions and world views, as I said above. They can’t learn everything about every religion just as they can’t learn everything about every science, every art, or every piece of history. When they are older they can study what ever they choose, in whatever depth they choose – people have different interests and priorities. We do kids no favours by indoctrinating in them in one particular religion before they are old enough to distinguish fact from opinion or “belief”.
You may be a nice person and well motivated Wendy but you seem to have a very narrow view of the world – probably because of your own childhood indoctrination or a lack of breadth in your own study. People can, and do, grow up to be ethical and believe in love, forgiveness, compassion, integrity, etc without needing a religion to do it. They develop those traits by example and by seeing them work, and because almost every human has a tendency towards these things embedded in their psyche.
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Debbie February 16, 2012
Exactly. Thank you for your lovely voice of reason.
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Debbie February 16, 2012
Teach them to read. Teach them to analyse. Teach them to think critically. And then let them decide for themselves which religions they would like to find out about as adults.
If what you want people to learn relies on indoctrinating them as children, then what you are saying is that a rational adult will probably reject it. If that’s true, you have no business teaching it to children.
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Shiralee February 16, 2012
Tracy you believe in education not segrecation. You also belive your children should be able to believe in what they want to. Just out of interest how are your children meant to be able to choose what to believe if they aren’t educated about different Religons. How are the meant to show tolerance to all people if they arent exposed to these religons from an early age?
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Rod February 16, 2012
Shralee, did you read page 2 where Tracy suggested the money be spent on ” incorporating an overview of world religions into the history curriculum.”? She is not arguing against education about religions, just against state supported evangalising by one particular brand of religion.
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Debbie February 16, 2012
Religion does not teach tolerance or acceptance. It teaches division and exclusivity and in-group/out-group mentality. We all learn about all kinds of things in the world – about people and culture and society – without being taught it all in school. Human beings are quite capable of deriving sound values by reason and experience. Nobody needs to be taught Christianity in a public school. If parents want to share their beliefs privately, that is one thing. But the government should not be using public funds to favour one religion over the rest, but allowing its chaplains to teach children in public schools. Religion is a private decision and should be kept out of school.
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MC February 16, 2012
Thanks Tracey for bringing this issue further into the public spotlight. Just this week I was sent home The Note regarding RI for my 6yo at his public school. After a lengthy letter of complaint to the school and the education department, I had a good chat to the principal of our school who agrees with every thing I wrote, but his hands are tied due to outdated laws. If parents want their kids to have a Christian education they should enrol them in Sunday School or ensure they are heading off to church every Sunday like good little Christians. Keep it out of the SECULAR public school system.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
If we leave our children to make up their minds about religion when they are older, who is going to tell them all that they need to know about each and every one of the many and wonderful legitimate religions there are out there so that they can make up their minds about it? Will all the parents here who are anti-scripture classes inform them? I expect they will not and therefore leave their child’s spiritual develop at the mercy of the first ‘new wave’ cult-style religion that comes along when they are adults – or worse: adolescents – and promises them ‘peace for their soul’.
Why is it we teach all our children about logarithms when we know damn well the majority of kids will never ever use a ‘quotient’ again?
We foster faith in our children and teach them about our chosen religion because human beings have a soul – we have a spiritual self that separates us from the other animals; it’s what makes us ‘civilised’, it’s what gives us compassion and empathy for one another. It’s important that we raise our children to think about how their actions affect those around them and how to live in harmony.
To be honest, I really think parents are already teaching their children about ethics at home. It’s not something we can afford to leave up to the schools to look after – the teachers there have enough to do already, heaven knows!
I’m sorry that more comments here on The Hoopla are not supportive of SRE classes in State schools; the views expressed here are giving the debate an uneven tilt in one direction.
A secular world does not mean an atheistic world – secular means: pertaining to worldly things that are not religious or spiritual. It does not mean anti-religion and a secular world does not deny we have a spiritual aspect to our humanity.
I can’t speak for other religions, but as a Catholic who teaches Catholic children in State schools, I can tell you that I have been trained by my Diocese to teach, I have had a police check done to ensure that I am a suitable person to work with children, I have received from the Diocese a full year’s curriculum to teach (I am NOT permitted to ‘do my own thing’), I have the parent’s permission to be there teaching their children, I have the children’s best interests in mind, and I believe I carry the Love of God into the classroom with me each and every time I go in.
There is a fairly famous poem by Kahlil Gibran that starts …
“Your children are not your children; they are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself …”We don’t own our kids, so we shouldn’t withhold from them something that may very well be as important in their futures as how to say ‘please’ and thank you’ and ‘I’m not feeling right … I think I need help”.
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Marty February 16, 2012
How do you define a legitimate religions? Can I ask you, what other deities do you consider legitimate? When you can understand why you reject those deities, you’ll understand why atheists reject yours, and why the topic of religion is only so much postulation – the kind of postulation that makes for a waste of public education money that I’m not willing to pay taxes for. With that in mind, why are my taxes going towards religion? You should be aware that Christianity is more new age than many religions out there, and that atheism itself has been around as long as there has been written word – atheism has, in fact, been around far longer than Christianity.
Why is it that we teach children religion and scripture without evidence, the kind of religion and scripture that teaches children to discriminate against homosexuals and other religions, when logarithms adopted by scientists, engineers, and others to perform computations more easily and rapidly, using slide rules and logarithm tables, help people find real paid work, and enable peaceful development of the civilised world?
You say we have a spiritual self that separates us from the other animals; it’s what makes us ‘civilised’, I say we have a level of intelligence that separates us from other animals, and if you think religion is civilised, then you’ve never really studied the fall of the Western Roman Empire, or the Salem witch burnings, or the Crusades. Or World War II. If you can’t learn compassion and empathy for others with your own better judgement, and need to rely on a book of rules, then you really aren’t separating your intelligence from animals at all. You’re just doing what you’re told. It’s important that we raise our children to think about how their actions affect those around them and how to live in harmony, and I quote you there verbatim, because somewhere along the line, those adults that have committed atrocities were innocent children at some stage that were all probably taught religion.
And I strongly suggest, as as a qualified teacher, that you do not attempt to place the teaching of religion above serious real-world academia such as mathematics. By suggesting logarithms are useless, you’ve essentially insulted those mathematicians and engineers responsible for making sure the bridges you cross don’t fall while you’re crossing them. You owe those people your life, and it’s all thanks to logarithms. As a qualified teacher, you should know better.
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WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
Interestingly enough, the three major religious groups: Jews, Christians and Muslims, all believe in the same God – it’s the Messiah we all have trouble identifying. The Jews are still waiting, Christians believe Jesus was The Man and, although Muslims recognise Jesus they do so only as a prophet, believing Mohammad was the one they were waiting for.
If you add the populations of these belief systems together you will find that 56% of the world’s people believe in the One True God. Then if you add the other people who believe in a Divine Deity, they make up 32.5%. So thats 88.5% of the world’s individuals who believe in a power higher than themselves. (CIA: The World Factbook – People and Society/Religions 2009 est.)
That would appear to put atheists in quite a minority. The CIA World Factbook estimates Atheists make up just 2.04% of the world’s peoples. But, as usual, the minority is the noisiest.
Doesn’t that make you think though Marty? Why do so many people from such diverse backgrounds all over the world believe in a Higher Being? And why are there so many similarities between these religions in the stories they have handed down through the millennia?
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WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
… and Marty, how do you think we got that “level of intelligence” that sets us above the animals if we evolved from them? Matter can multiply itself but it cannot change itself into something it is not. An eye cell cannot change itself into a liver cell.
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Marty February 18, 2012
Oh dear, did you just tell me that matter cannot change and then pretend to know something about cells? Go and do some research on stem cells, please.
And then, while you’re at it, go and check your CIA world factbook source again – I use it quite frequently, so I actually know what to look for. Go to Australia, since we’re talking about our country here, and not the whole world, and have a look at the religion figures there, please.
Protestant 27.4% (Anglican 18.7%, Uniting Church 5.7%, Presbyterian and Reformed 3%), Catholic 25.8%, Eastern Orthodox 2.7%, other Christian 7.9%, Buddhist 2.1%, Muslim 1.7%, other 2.4%, unspecified 11.3%, none 18.7% (2006 Census)
You told me that all these religions that believe in the same God, ie Abrahamic faiths (yes, I know a little about what I’m saying here), are a majority – yes, they are, but that disagreement about the “prophet” is a pretty big damn disagreement, and I’m sure that muslims don’t want Christianity being taught to their kids.
So in a school with kids of various religions, if you teach only one, you’re teaching someone the WRONG thing, Period. Whereas if you teach none, you’re not doing any harm, and those children can still learn their religion if their parents take them to church.
So, of Christian/Catholic faiths = 63.8%
Buddhism 2.1%
Muslim 1.7%
other (incl. chinese traditional) = 2.4%
none (agnostic/atheist) 18.7%If you teach christianity or catholicism, you’re teaching 36.2% of australians the wrong thing. if you teach buddhism or muslim or anything else, you’ll probably get outright laughed at. However, if schools taught nothing on religion, and religion was kept in the churches where it belongs, then there isn’t any harm done.
If the major religions are ALL taught as part of the curriculum for history or social sciences, then children predisposed to one religion in church can be given the opportunity to learn that there are other religions out there, and learn how other people have a right to their religion as they do to theirs. It may also give children the opportunity to say, “hey, I don’t think I believe this, but I believe this instead.” Schools are a place of education. Church is the place for religion.
When you’ve got your numbers right, I’ll be more than happy to continue conversation with you. Until then, don’t waste my time with any more attempts at mathematics – clearly the school system didn’t do you any favours. Another argument against religion in schools right there – religion clouds empirical evidence-based education.
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Rod February 16, 2012
Wendy, re how will they learn and choose – see my response above.
But Wendy, do you REALLY think children need a religion to teach then to say Please and Thank You? You may believe behavior comes from a soul but a lot of other good parents don’t, and don’t want that idea stated as fact to their young children and causing division.
You’re right that secular doesn’t mean atheistic. It means not favouring one religion over another. In Victoria’s case one religion IS being favoured – and no it isn’t catholicism (you are small fry!) it’s evangelical creationist protestantism as delivered by “Access Ministries” who have got themselves providing 96% of the “Special Religious Instruction” in the state. As you said above you can only speak for the catholics – so do that, and don’t try to defend people you know little about from us concerned parents who you don’t comprehend at all.-
WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
My reference to please and thank you was merely a reference to the fact that we teach our children manners no matter whether we believe in God or not.
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Rod February 16, 2012
Well we can agree on that at least Wendy
I also believe we can teach them ” to think about how their actions affect those around them and how to live in harmony” without needing to refer to god or to reward or punishment in an afterlife.
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WENDY GREEN February 16, 2012
Albert Einstein said …..
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.” (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)
“In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views.”. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)
“As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene….No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” –Albert Einstein
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Rod February 16, 2012
Einstein was a great mathematician and by all accounts a nice bloke. But he didn’t know everything.. Lots of smart, nice people don’t believe in gods or in the need for religious instruction. Each to his own.
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Debbie February 16, 2012
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.”
(Albert Einstein)Einstein was a deist, a believer in an impersonal creator God (which rules him out of Christianity). He said, “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
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Ken Chandler February 16, 2012
I do not have the opportunity of checking these putative quotations by Einstein, but he did not believe in God. He also said ” God does not play dice”,when discussing quantum theory, but his allusion in this comment was to the natural universe and the laws which define it..
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Debbie February 16, 2012
And when Einstein said what you quoted on the subject of Jesus, he said it in reply to the question, “You accept the historical existence of Jesus?” He was in no way testifying of Jesus as divine or the son of God.
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Kathy February 16, 2012
I believe many people have misunderstood the essence of many religions. Scripture (sacred writings from different religious cultures) have evolved using diverse methods of writing. Poetry, prose, mythology, historical narratives, parables etc have been used to convey life truths…they have not been used in order to portray a scientific account of how life began and how it should be lived. I cannot speak for all religions but many convey simple messages that instruct on how to live a ‘good’ life ie. treat others as you would have
others treat you, forgiveness, compassion etc. When my son tells me what he was taught in RI we qualify that as what ‘Christianity’ believes and then discuss the merits or lack of merit of that belief. I encourage him to think and learn about other religions/belief systems. I am grateful that he is learning a particular worldview that encourages discussion and further learning at home. -
dramaqueen75 February 17, 2012
I am afraid I am going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here.
As a child I went to Catholic schools. My parents were non-practicing Catholics and, by default, so was I. When I did go to church it was through school, I quite liked mass; I was in the choir.
It was not until year 11 under the tutorage of a wonderful, progressive, feminist nun (yes, there is such a thing) that I started to learn about other religions and about ethics. This opened my mind – and left me with a lot of questions.These days I am totally against the teaching of religion in schools and, here is the controversial part – ALL schools. My school experience was a white-bread, middle class, anglo, Catholic bubble. Thank heavens I went to uni, made friends from all walks of life, all backgrounds and creed and expanded my views on life.
My kids are all at state schools, they know kids from many socio-economic and religious backgrounds. Their life experience to date is a lot broader than mine was at their age. Religious and private schools create little enclaves of “sameness” which do not reflect every day life.
So, get the RE out of schools – all schools I would argue.
Families and the community the family live in are there to help young people learn about their spiritual side if they so wish.
The school system if for providing a broad education – sure, learn about different religions, learn ethics, discuss laws, civics and morality – but keep the direct Religious Instruction of of schools.
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Stel February 17, 2012
From reading everything that’s here so far, I have to say, absolutely no one who supports RE in public schools has even come up with a good enough reason as to why it should stay. And Wendy seems to only reply to posts that she sees fit. Completely ignores Tess’ post of “I would not have my children believe in a religion which does all it can to cover up systematic rape and abuse of children.” and moves on to some one else’s.
In regards to one statement Wendy has brought up many times, where it’s the parents job to find out what, who, when teaches RE. As far as most parents are concerned, they send their children to a public school to avoid religious education, yet only find out from their children, or other parents about what really goes on. The school may state that RE is taught in the school, but wont tell you WHAT the RE “teacher” teaches, cause in most cases even the school has no idea, they simply get free roam to do as they please, and then get paid.
Personally, I would much rather my 7ry old not be brainwashed about how civilisation was brought on by incest, twice only a few thousand years ago, or a 500 something yr old man building a giant boat to save almost all the animals, but who forgot the dinosaurs. amongst all the rest of the fairytale stories that some teach as fact, despite having not a single piece of evidence to support a single story, unlike the evidence of evolution, which to Wendy it seems that it’s still a theory.
And yet she doesn’t want that to be taught, I’m sorry Wendy, but you have absolutely NO place to say you don’t want a “theory” taught when you are pushing YOUR theory onto others, it is a typical hypocritical “christian” thing to do.
Despite all this, the simple fact remains that originally the public school system was reformed to not have religious education forced on to children a very long time ago, yet only about 60 years ago it seems a bunch of “christians” put an agenda together to fight that, with the typical sneakiness of getting their views pushed through with as few people knowing as possible. The church ( which ever you like to choose) has an agenda it wants to push into peoples heads in any way possible, just like any religion, it wants to dominate, and lately feels threatened, by people who are grown up, and have a mind of their own, so what’s the next, easy, best thing? kids, who easily learn and believe pretty much anything they are told. My child learns to be compassionate, thoughtful and mindful of others, have manners, and just be a good kid in general, not from the bible, but from me. I was brought up to be nice, polite, show respect and all that, and not from a fairy tale book either. Any reference of good behaviour, compassion and love coming only from the “teachings” of the bible is absolute rubbish. If it where to teach compassion, then why is it so hateful of other religions?
And just to be fair, why not allow ALL other religions to be taught along side it? It expects all other religions to have their own schools, so what is so special about christianity that sets it apart? Other religions have a different view on many things, but the basis of all religions are ALL the same. (look it up, you will be gob smacked as to how many similarities there actually are across all religions)
In my opinion, its either all or nothing, teach all religions, in a manner that isn’t indoctrinating, not just a single view, or if that isn’t something that can be achieved, then the simple solution is to simply not allow any form of any religion to be taught in a public school.-
blue February 17, 2012
About quotes: I have found that you can find a quote from a reputable source that will back up whatever argument you are presenting in a paper. I am bemused by this. It is so easy, when writing an essay for example, to take quotes out of context and use them to support your own argument — in a way the original source of the quote never intended.
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WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
Just a few comments on your post, Stel:
1. Please see my reply to Tess on 18 Feb.
2. This topic has had I reckon more reaction than any other in the history of The Hoopla!! Would that be right Wendy H? I did not reply to every comment, only the ones that I felt had really got it wrong or were misleading others. The comment left by Tess was very serious and I felt I needed time to respond rather than give an inadequate reply.
3. And when you say, “As far as most parents are concerned, they send their children to a public school to avoid religious education”, how many parents have you actually spoken to? And at how many different schools?
4. I don’t ‘push’ my beliefs onto anyone – the Catholic Church is invited into the public schools to instruct the baptised children of the Catholic parents there. Some parents want their children to receive instruction because – for one reason or another – they aren’t able to send their children to the Catholic School. For others, it’s a deliberate choice to utilise the public school system but they also know that scripture will be taught and they are happy about that. We don’t have parents banging down the door of the presbytery telling our priest to get the SRE teachers out, quite the contrary. We are highly valued volunteers.
5. You might be surprised to hear that I support ethics classes in public schools, and so does my Church, but we support it as long as it doesn’t compete with SRE classes. Why? Because there are many parents out there (the silent majority) who want their children to get a little religion as a part of their education; to see it as a part of their normal lives.
Children will always make up their own minds as adults about what to believe in. We just want to hand on our own traditions so that they have a head start and something to compare other religions with.
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Serin February 17, 2012
Sorry this is an old Chestnut-
I had the experience of being ostracised when I was a child- back in the late sixties- Ash Wednesday II think it was. All the catholic students were asked to a mass those that were not left to their own devices. The children at the mass came back with an ash mark on their foreheads. We did feel like we had missed out on some secret club. Still I grew up and put things in perspective. There is unfortunately always going to be those who thing themselves superior- or who have moralistic high ground perspective- even atheist’s suffer from this. It seems a very human fraility. I think the Jesus parables and other similar styled stories from other religions deal with some of these human conditions well- and I am not sure children are harmed by reading them- as long as they are able to process them from their own perspective, which I think the original author of the parables intended us to do. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
We should be promoting well rounded individual who are able to process and make decisions in our schools- good teachers should empower that process.-
WENDY GREEN February 18, 2012
Here! Here!
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Lesley February 17, 2012
There are a strong opinions here but mine is a personal story.I came from a violent,abusive home and knew nothing of God or his love.When I went to scripture classes at age12,it changed my life,I discovered a world of hope,purpose and love found in the person of God the Father and Jesus his son.Forty years later,I thank God for Scripture in Schools.
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Joni February 18, 2012
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
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Joni February 18, 2012
Sorry, Lesley, did not mean to reply there after your post. It is heartening to see how Scripture in schools helped you. Further to Christianity positive impact-
Christianity’s Positive Impact
A. The Rise of Modern Science
1. Science rose in the West, not in the East. Why?
2. Whitehead and Oppenheimer insisted that modern science could not have been born except in a Christian milieu.
3. Many pioneering scientists were not only theists, but Christians: Newton, Pasteur, Kepler, Paschal, Fleming, Edwards.
4. Concepts conducive to scientific inquiry were expressly Christian:
a. Positive attitude toward the world.
b. Awareness of order (i.e. cause/effect, cf. Rom. 1:20).
c. Views of man as a superintendent of nature.
d. Positive attitude toward progress (“Have dominion . . .” [Gen. 1:28ff])
B. The Development of Higher Education
1. The Puritans were 95 per cent literate.
2. The University movement and the quest for knowledge (Berkeley, Descartes, the British Empiricists, Locke & Reid).
3. 100 of the first 110 universities in America were founded for the express purpose of propagating the Christian religion.
4. The American university emerged from American Seminaries (Witherspoon, Princeton; Timothy Dwight, Yale).
C. Christianity and the Arts: the influence has been so broad as to be inestimable.
D. Social Change
1. Means of Social Change
a. Reform—moderately effective, but slow. Not always good.
b. Revolution—more rapid, but usually bloody.
c. Reneneration—Changing persons changes society. Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . .That which is born of flesh is flesh: that which is born of spirit is spirit” (John 3:3,6). Paul spoke of the Christian rebirth in this way, “Do not be conformed to this world-system, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind . . .” (Romans 12:2).
d. There is a difference between professing Christianity and possessing a personal relationship with Christ.
2. Examples in the Early Church
a. In 252 A.D., the Christians of Corinth saved the city from the plague by responding to the needs of those who were simply dragged into the street.
b. In 312 A.D., half of the Roman Empire came under the political and social influence of Christianity under the rule of Constantine.
c. Early Christians stood in opposition to infanticide, degradation of women, gladiatorial combats, slavery, etc.
3. Examples in the Middle Ages (Consider the Monks, not the knights.)
a. Monasteries served as hospitals, places of refuge.
b. Monastic schools trained scribes to preserve manuscripts.
c. Monasteries also developed agricultural skills and knowledge.
d. The Scholastics remain a pivotal period of intellectual growth.
e. A time of major artistic development: architecture, music, literature.
4. Examples during the Reformation
a. A myriad of forces were at work in the vast social and religious shift known as the Reformation (i.e. Luther, printing, Gutenburg Bible).
b. Calvin and the other reformers must not be ignored. Says Fred Graham in The Constructive Revolutionary, “Economic, scientific, and political historians . . . generally know little about Calvin’s own secular ideas. They assume that it was simply the rupture with tradition made by Calvinists which produced certain changes of life-styles which, in turn, affected society in Protestant countries in later centuries. But the heart of this study shows clearly that Calvin himself was aware of the epochal character of his own (social and economic) teaching and of the transforming implications of the Genevan pattern which he had a hand in forming” (11).
5. Examples in Colonial America.
a. The First Great Awakening (1725-75) raised up many American universities. 100 of the first 110 American universities were founded expressly founded for the purpose of training men to propagate the Christian faith.
b. American educational and political systems, Christian influences.
1) Colonial education was classical and Christian, with the Bible and its principles primary to all learning. The New England Primer appeared about 1690 and was almost universally adopted. It was the chief beginning reading book for American schools for over 100 years. The contents clearly show its religious character and purpose which included forty pages containing the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
2) Framers of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. The vast majority at the Constitutional Convention (55 delegates) were members of Protestant churches: 28 Episcopalians, eight Presbyterians, seven Congregationalists, two Lutherans, two Dutch Reformed, two Methodists, two Roman Catholics, three Deists, one unknown.
c. The Wesley-Whitefield revivals resulted in millions of Christian conversions. Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was converted after hearing the preface of Luther’s commentary on Romans read at Aldersgate: “About a quarter before nine, which they were describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, and Christ alone, for my salvation, and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine.”
d. Wesley preached the social responsibilities of Christian piety:
1772 – Slavery was judicially excluded from England, 14,000 freed
1792 – Conditions aboard slave ships were regulated by law
1808 – The English slave trade was abolished.
1831 – All European slave trade abolished. England spent 15 million pounds for enforcement, even making payments to Spain and Portugal to stop the trade.
1833 – Slavery abolished in British Empire: 45 million pounds paid in compensation to free 780,933 slaves. Wilburforce, along with Buxton, Macaulay, and Clark . . . all evangelicals who were converted under Wesley’s ministry, were the top leaders in ending slavery (This British action in the 1830′s profoundly affected American attitudes which resulted in the Civil War).
e. Prison reform: John Howard, Elizabeth Fry (England); Fliedner (Germany). Florence Nightingale, the mother of modern nursing, was trained in one of Fliedner’s schools in Kaiserswerth.
f. Labor reform: Anthony Ashley Cooper (Earl of Shaftesbury, self-described “Evangelical of the Evangelicals” pioneered child-labor laws, prohibited women working in the mines, established mental health sanitarium, built parts and libraries).
g. Harriett Beecher Stowe. Daughter of a preacher, married to a preacher; all her brothers were preachers. Her book, Uncle Tom’s Cabin ignited the minds and imaginations of people in both North and South. “So this is the little lady who made this big war,” said Abraham Lincoln upon meeting her for the first time. Her book was the first great American bestseller. (Initial print run was 300,000 copies. Sold three million copies in America, then 40 million worldwide in 40 languages).
h. The Third Great Awakening (1858-59) produced a rash of missionary and philanthropic organizations in the U. S. and England:
• Barnardo’s Homes (world’s largest orphanage system)
• William Booth’s Salvation Army
• Henri Dunant, a student evangelist in Geneva, founded the Red Cross in 1865
• YMCA was founded in 1844 and grew greatly
• The missionaries from William Carey on:—CMS (Christian Missionary Society) taught 200,000 to read in East Africa in one generation
—Secured the abolition of widow-burning and child sacrifice
—Brought medicine to the world
—Actually founded the educational systems in China, Japan, and Korea.i. Today: World Vision, Wycliffe Bible Translators, Mission agencies, Parachurch groups, Denominational missionaries, medical personnel, teachers, and volunteers.
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Rod February 19, 2012
That’s a big cut and paste Joni! However it’s not very accurate. Great science was going on in Egypt, Greece, China, and South America way before Christianity became an influence. When the Europeans rediscovered science after the Dark Ages it was because they once again had enough affluence to spend time thinking beyond survival. And as that science started to develop, the church tried as hard as it could to hold it back and deny it. Look how they reacted to Galileo, Darwin and others. I’m afraid your cut and paste is full of biased ignorant rubbish.
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dramaqueen75 February 19, 2012
I also believe there is a wonderful rich history of science and medicine in Persia and the Islamic cultures, so the simplistic cut and paste job from some right wind Christian website is disregarding much of world history and is disrespectful to all of the people in other lands and other creeds who were advancing civilization while many Christians were out on their murderous crusades and burning midwives at the stake.
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WENDY GREEN February 19, 2012
Thank you for this Joni – what an amazing amount of work you’ve put into stating your argument for the benefits of Christianity in the modern world.
And don’t listen to Rod’s insults. You’ve done a great job
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Shiralee February 17, 2012
In reply to the person who replyed to my post (unsure who it was) yes religon is a privaate matter I agree. But not all parents are willing to teach there children about different beliefs, tolerance and respect and if parents don’t do this where else will they learn this. What children are taught and learn from adults is hate. I have seen it personally having been a techer myself. I also agree with you that it should not just be one religon should be pushed on people. I want my children to grow up well educated people which means that not just me but the school I send my children to will educate my children. that includes All religons.
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Kid February 17, 2012
There are a lot of myths that I hate. For example, that without Christians there’d be no charities, that scripture classes and teaching kids about the concept of religious belief and different religious beliefs is the same thing, and that Christians are the only source of teachings regarding values. All of these things are wrong.
If you want to indoctrinate kids (because that is what it’s about and it would be nice if you were honest about that for once), please do it on your own time, with your own funds, and most importantly, your own kids.
As a gay man, the thought of my taxes contributing to kids being taught that I’m a second class citizen or even subhuman makes me furious, especially when you consider that such views instil values contrary to Australian law.
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Stacey February 17, 2012
Couldnt have said it better myself. Bravo.
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Joni February 18, 2012
Why is nobody who is against religious teaching in school complaining about the teaching of Aboriginal Dreaming and Spiritualities in school? The value in affirming the identity and culture of Aborigines (and indigenous people in general should also apply to the religions of other groups.
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Royce February 19, 2012
I’m a teacher….. I PROMISE that I NEVER tell kids that the Dreamtime is true.
I does however make as much sense as a magic person impregnating an insignificant Jewish lady.
Like all religions, they should be taught as interesting cultural beliefs, with NO value indoctrination.
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WENDY GREEN February 19, 2012
The Dreamtime is true for the Aboriginals. Why would you teach children that it is not true? How do you know it’s not true?
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Hilton Travis February 21, 2012
Wendy, “The Dreaming” is as true as any other creation myth. They all should be taught as they are – mythology. I do believe children need to be taught about religion and why some people believe in a particular creation myth they cannot prove, cannot reasonably explain and yet take as an absolute truth whilst rejecting all other equally valid creation myths.
It belongs in a philosophy class, however, and to be taught as they mythology it all is.
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PIrra February 20, 2012
Joni, people aren’t objecting to it because The Dreamings don’t preach hate, or stigmatise, or proselytise. They are (the ones being taught in schools) also mostly stories about teaching ethics. (Kangaroo for instance is about kindness, Platypus is about anti-discrimination, Tiddylick is about greed, Lightning Man is about the importance of following rules etc.)
The Dreaming is an integral part of Aboriginality. You cannot learn about Indigenous history without learning about The Dreaming. It’s the strongest surviving part of Indigenous culture that is accessible for all. Without it, Indigenous history begins, largely, in 1788.
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PIrra February 20, 2012
Also, The Dreaming isn’t taught as a religion, it’s taught as a part of a culture’s history. (Which is also kind of erroneous, since The Dreaming continues. )
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blue February 20, 2012
PIrra, history ‘continues’ too.
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Annie from Faulco February 19, 2012
My Anglican mother and my husband’s Catholic father assumed that our daughter would attend a specific SRI class at our local state primary school. As agnostics, we elected for the non-scripture option, which displeased grandparental expectations equally. After an unsatisfactory experience in non-scripture, we decided to try the Baha’i class. Weekly, our daughter came home with age-appropriate information about the world’s many religions, provided by a gentle soul who promoted respect and love of all people, cultures and religions.
For her HSC, she chose Studies of Religion at our local state high school. This subject encompassed her love of history, philosophy, literature, art and culture.
No indoctrination, just a love of learning about the different ways in which the quest for spirituality has been expressed over centuries. She is now expanding her horizons into history and philosophy of science, archaeology and linguistics at university. And, by her own rational choice, an atheist. I am proud that she has had an appreciation of the religious allusions in western literature and exposure to magnificent artworks and architecture through her experiences at school. And prouder still that she is an independent thinker who knows what she thinks and why she thinks it.
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Mrs Woog February 21, 2012
I am not religious at all, nor is Mr Woog. My sister married a Catholic and began going to church to get her kids into a Catholic High School and got them all baptised which I found highly amusing. I do not think they have been to church since.
Us? Well rather than do “non scripture” we also see that time as valuable learning time, so our boys do a year of each on offer. They have done Jewish, Catholic and are currently studying Bahai. Works for us! x
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Hilton Travis February 21, 2012
Creationism isn’t a theory (in scientific terms) it is a hypothesis. The term “theory” in general parlance and in scientific nomenclature has very, very different meanings.
And in a secular society, having one particular creation myth rammed down a child’s throat in a public, government-funded school is abhorrent. There *should* be religious education, but in philosophy classes and discussing all forms of religion equally.
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zerosupernatural February 22, 2012
Police supervision of chaplains, auditing of school principles, allocating funds for Islamic and other faith indoctrination etc is like introducing Ferrets and stoats to deal with the rabbit problem in New Zealand. Simply Stupid. We need to fight for a secular public education system in Australia to nip this in the bud BEFORE the “ferrets” are introduced!
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Lauren March 5, 2012
BBBBOOOOO YYYYOOOOUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YYYAAAAAAAYYYYYY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..Just sayin, bro….
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Sue April 23, 2012
I do not believe in taking God out of Schools. All good religions believe in God or Allah. Children must be taught Honesty, Kindness, Decency. No bad language and no
competition in sport just fun. Honesty in exams. Teach them to knit or sew or cook for the homeless. Do what they can to help those that sleep outdoors keep warm.
Knit or sew items to send to the Missions. Kindness is badly needed in all schools and all religions. Paying your bus fare otherwise that is Stealing. Respect all peoples property. -
Sue April 23, 2012
I do not believe in taking God out of Schools. All good religions believe in God or Allah. Children must be taught Honesty, Kindness, Decency. No bad language and no
competition in sport just fun. Honesty in exams. Teach them to knit or sew or cook for the homeless. Do what they can to help those that sleep outdoors keep warm.
Knit or sew items to send to the Missions. Kindness is badly needed in all schools and all religions. Paying your bus fare otherwise that is Stealing. Respect all peoples property. -
Chris Hickey March 11, 2013
I am a retired Catholic. I believe comparative religious studies are the only way to reduce the friction between different religions.
Ignorance is the issue, education is the only solution. These ethics classes are simply a waste of time and are focusing on bible stories anyway. I don’t believe a child should be forced into dedicating there lives to any religion, once they turn 18 then they can make those promises.
I was baptised, did my communion, now I have a daughter who I have not baptised, if she believes in the Story then she can make that choice if she chooses too. However I am now doomed to hell according to the Catholic church for giving my daughter a choice and because they effectively blackmailed my father. I believe in GOD not religion! -
silkworm March 14, 2013
The time wasted in RE would be better spent in improving our kids’ literacy.
