THE DATING PROJECT #6. EXPECTATIONS
The Dating Project follows the adventures of three women Lou Lou ( 30s), Astrid (40s) and Iris (50s) as they navigate the tricky online dating scene. Along the way they have the support and advice of renowned sex therapist Bettina Arndt and relationship counsellor Rob Tiller.
It’s all happening.
All three women now have their profiles up on line and are in the thick of it, getting a good taste of those early thrills of internet dating. It is incredibly exciting when you first start getting those kisses.
I had a girlfriend staying with me over Easter five years ago when I first posted my internet profile and we spent the entire weekend rushing to the computer every time we hear that welcome ping announcing I had mail. We spent days totally obsessed by the whole business.
But it is also a process which forces you to accept some hard truths about where you are in your life and the type of man you are likely to attract.
I have had many conversations this week with Astrid and Iris about how they are deciding which men deserve their kisses. Naturally they are attracted to the best-looking men, the hunky guys who seem to have most to offer… tall, good jobs, well-educated, lively, funny types.
But I’ve been trying to protect them by teaching them about the dangers of aiming too high.
These dazzling men tick most women’s boxes and they have all the choice in the world. Men like this are usually swamped with hundreds of kisses and emails every day – I know one man who had 85 responses in the first hour after he posted his profile.
While it’s tempting to aim high, it just increases the risk of rejection – and no one needs too much of that.
The message I am trying to get through to our team is to be realistic about the type of man they are likely to attract – so they maximise the chances of getting a response. For anyone who is struggling with that process, I’d recommend a wonderful book – Lori Gottlieb’s Marry Him – The case for Settling for Mr Good Enough.
Yes, I know it is a dreadful title and most women would rankle at the thought of ‘settling’. But Lori Gottlieb does a great job describing how, as a 40-year-old single mother, she had real difficulty coming to terms with not being able to attract the highly eligible men who interested her most. She enlisted a team of advisers who helped her see that every year she spent in the search for the perfect man – Prince Charming or nobody – her buying power decreased.
Her book includes a humiliating tale of emailing “a scubadiving 40-year-old lawyer”, only to have him remind her they’d met through the internet five years earlier. Back then, she’d knocked him back.
She’d dismissed him as a “five”, now he was an “eight” and she was the one who no longer made the cut.
“Our generation of women is constantly told to have high self-esteem, but it seems that the women themselves are at risk of ego-tripping themselves out of romantic connection,” she writes.
It’s a really important point. For older women, particularly those who have had gorgeous men in their past lives, it’s really tough to understand that you probably won’t attract that type of man anymore – they are too much in demand. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t find enjoyable male company.
Astrid and Iris are facing that very competitive older women’s market, so I’m trying to encourage them stop looking for Mr Right but rather, to start the search process by looking for the good in men.
They need to read profiles looking for positive qualities that might mean a man could add something to their lives rather than being put off by every small negative.
Ok, he can’t spell. Yes, I too wonder why more men don’t use spell check before posting their profiles. Yet one of the smartest men I ever knew was the most dreadful speller – so I don’t think this makes sense as a deal breaker.
It helps to start by looking for male friends who might be just be good company – someone who might enjoy sharing some of the things you enjoy – whether it is bike riding, listening to jazz or going to a movie. Just think – if Iris would like having a man’s hands holding hers in the movie theatre, maybe all she needs, at this point, is a kind man with warm hands.
And that’s not so hard to find.
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47 Responses to this article
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Anne June 15, 2012
Good on you ladies! Your adventures are really exciting to read about. Thanks Lou Lou, Astrid and Iris for being so frank about how you think and feel. It must be tough for you to be realistic about the type of men you will attract. Bettina’s comment that ‘internet dating gives you a unique opportunity to meet many men and find out more about what really appeals to you’ sounds so encouraging. You ladies are so brave, good luck next week.
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MoniqueN June 15, 2012
I came to the conclusion when I dipped into RSVP that there are a fair chunk of the men who never actually read your carefully crafted profile, they just look at the picture and say yes or no and send a kiss accordingly. It’s frustrating but you have to just recognise that like sorting applications for a job, there are some that merit further investigation and some that just go straight on the ‘No’ pile and not agonise about it.
Of course I got off RSVP after a deeply weird online encounter with a man with a BDSM fetish and no boundaries to speak of – I still tell the story at dinner parties – and met a guy the traditional way, but I look forward to hearing of your further adventures out in cyber-land and wish you all the best of luck
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Alice Shaw June 15, 2012
I would have to agree with that. I have an age limit set at 48 (I’m 43) which I think is reasonable. Yet the majority of contact I’ve had is with men over 50 and from quite a few in their 60′s. I politely decline.
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MoniqueN June 15, 2012
At the time I was in my early thirties and I had the age limit set at forty, which I thought was quite reasonable, and I, like Alice, was getting contacts from men in their forties and fifties.
The funny thing was I would send back half heartedly dismissive replies like ‘I’m flattered but maybe not’ because I didn’t want to hurt their feelings, but this just made a few of them send more contacts in the hope I would change my mind, so I started sending the firm no, so as not to waste their time and mine and never mind their feelings (In fact for some of them I really wished there was a ‘rack off and leave me alone you creepy b**stard’ button
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The Huntress June 15, 2012
I really like the sensible advice being dolled out here. Again, recounting helping my own friends with their internet profiles, I remember the lads sifting through the women and picking out all these lovely, supermodel-esque, women who didn’t do a lot of smiling, seemed to do a lot of partying and didn’t really seem to offer up much in the stakes.
It was painful telling my lovely, lovely friend that while these ladies were undoubtedly gorgeous to look at they weren’t for him. They weren’t going to laugh at his jokes. Their careers were so far removed from each other it wasn’t funny (medical research vs. fashion). It was hard to picture any one of these ladies getting dirt under her nails while fostering dogs. It was a case of setting realistic expectations. Thankfully we are still friends.
And as a disclaimer I am a lady who set myself realistic expectations after having left my ex. And considering my expectations were that no-one would be stupid enough to take on a single mother/nursing student, I was pleasantly surprised! I waaayyyyy surpassed my expectations
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DAL June 15, 2012
I once rejected a guy because he preferred watching the Formula 1 to Jane Austen period dramas. I felt that our long term future together was unlikely to be successful given our divergent interests.
My sister gave me a stern talking-to. The aforementioned guy is now my delightful husband of 8 years.
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ros June 15, 2012
Nice to read those stories are similar to mine (and I’m older…)
From my observation, I no longer “kiss” as it seems that men don’t like being “chased” and prefer to do the “chasing”.
Never had anything developing from sending a “kiss” but had plenty of received “kisses” developing into emails developing into meetings.
Just a thought ladies! -
Ray June 15, 2012
Hi Ladies
Having fielded a few profiles over the last four years, I must say from a Male perspective, there are a few techniques that the girls use that get up my nose!! I trust that if you are using any of these, you may consider changing your profile.
“My friends tell me bla bla….” Some friends!!!!! Why don’t you tell me? Studio shots – you must be kidding. I’ve never met anybody who looks like their studio shot – you’re joking!!! Pictures of “Me in Venice 2006″ or “At my 21st 1n 1965″ – give me a break – shall I send you a picture of my “New” 1988 Holden Commodore? Upper case – NO APPLICANTS WITH A BEARD NEED APPLY – what are you doing – yelling at me already? We haven’t even met. “Honest” – was I expecting you to day “Dishonest”?? Love travel, fine dining, skiing etc etc. This means “I used to when the ex paid for it” ” I’ve never paid for anything – my ex always did”. Good luck darling – there is a lot of competition out there!!! Why do men have to be ‘generous”? Just be natural, don’t be a pricess, have real photos, try some humor, lighten up and enjoy the game. I have met some lovely girls who do not fall into the above categories but I fear there are a greater prortion over 55 who do. Have fun. -
Louisa June 15, 2012
I hope this series is not encouraging people to sign up to a website where you have to pay to meet people when there is a perfectly good free one called okcupid. Participants answer between 1 and 800 questions (it can be quite addictive) and then the ‘robot’ sends you matches. I sent a message to someone I wouldn’t look twice at and who lived on the other side of town. I had no other intention other than commenting on our shared love of a particular landmark. Eight months later we are moving in together and making plans to marry next year. And it didn’t cost me a cent. You do get messages from Americans sometimes and there it is apparently a bit of a Mecca for polyamorous people but I think it is the best site around and I have tried them all. BTW we are both in our early 50s. Good luck to the three women your stories are extremely well written and quite addictive
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Ray June 15, 2012
Ros
I am perfectly happy for women to send me Kisses. The only problem that tends to arise is when they do not include a photo. The response then has to be “Thanks for the Kiss – how about a pic”. If the guy thinks she is not his type, she then receives a “Thanks but no thanks” reply which should be seen as no more rejecting than a direct “No thanks” when a photo is included at the outset. Why not just be up front unless you have something to hide? Just sitting back waiting for the fish to swim into your net seems to be a waste of time girls. Get out there and nail him!!!!! -
Confused June 15, 2012
It seems to me that this project is evolving into something really unworthy of The Hoopla.
I love The Hoopla because it celebrates everything that’s wonderful about being a woman of a certain age.
Are we seriously supporting telling three gorgeous, lovely and intelligent women that they can’t expect to meet their male equivalent?
This most recent stage of the project even says that older women who used to date gorgeous men in their past should accept they won’t attract that kind of man anymore.
Seriously? I expect more of The Hoopla and I’m really confused by this latest development.
Is it because Bettina ‘oh just give him a pity shag’ Arndt is involved?
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Sere June 15, 2012
I don’t know how you women do it. I WOULD NOT and COULD NOT put myself up for such callous, shallow, cold, hard, outright rejection, just from putting up a picture.I would not give a man the POWER to do that to me. I love myself too much, Out in the world I would only put my feelings and myself on the line if I thought I was receiving signals of interest. You are all either a LOT BRAVER or SILLIER than me to do that to yourself and your self esteem.
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Sally June 16, 2012
Beware the sites that are not based in Australia (often hard to discover) – I have just got burned by a fake site that rips money out of your credit card and the only way to stop them was to cancel the card. If they advertise on TV in australia they are genuine if not be very careful.
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Danala June 16, 2012
have any of these women put their postcodes and key parameters for male partners into RSVP to see what their total potential ‘pool’ is? Depending on where they live the numbers might be quite small to start with…
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Sally June 16, 2012
Having met a number of guys via internet dating I have noticed that they are all on the short side. A girl friend had the same experience and remarked that once you get over 50 not only are there fewer fish in the sea, but most have been thrown back because they were undersized!!
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Bettina Arndt June 16, 2012
Sere, they are brave, not silly. Yes, it is tough dealing with the rejection but the potential rewards are there. If the alternative is living alone with a cat, surely the risks are worth it.
And Sally, I have met plenty of tall men through internet dating. And while I enjoyed your cute comment, we’re trying to avoid sneering at men on the Dating Project. Women hate it when men make nasty quips about their deficiencies so I can’t see we gain anything by making fun of men.
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Sere June 16, 2012
Bettina, I do NOT believe the ‘slap in the face’ these women receive from the rejection they experience just after putting up a picture is worth it, as it will effect their future. We all suffer rejection in life, but that is just asking for it in the most SHALLOW way.
I love the way you keep a check on the way the people on this site speak about others, from your comment about neither gender appreciating’ nasty quips’. Well done, KEEP IT UP. -
Bettina Arndt June 16, 2012
Confused, you have obviously believed all the ignorant bile that is written about me by my critics. I never talk about pity shags nor women servicing their husbands. What I do say is that any person who is constantly sexually rejecting their partner needs to think about what it is like to never feel wanted or desired. And that applies to MEN as well as women. How can this possibly be seen as anti-woman when it is a two-way street?
You might not like the fact that the odds are against older women but the figures are there to prove it. It doesn’t make sense to argue against the Australian Bureau of Statistics data showing there are many more single women in all age groups over thirty than men.. and the stats simply get worse as women grow older.
That means older men have more choice… because many of the successful men in these age groups also can attract younger women.
You may find it offensive to talk about this issue but I believe women need to know why they find it so hard to meet suitable men. This doesn’t mean they should give up, but it means they have to cast a wide net and be serious about trying to find men.. if that is what they want. Of course many women are happy without male company but others might enjoy having some nice men in their lives, even if they aren’t Mr Perfect. Mr Good Enough is sometimes very good company!
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Confused June 16, 2012
Bettina, I agree with you about the terrible toll that sexual rejection takes on a partner. I was married to a man who was asexual and it was awful.
Now that I’m single, I am approached by very lonely married men who miss sex, miss their wives, miss intimacy and miss love.
I don’t disagree with you on that one at all.
It’s just that I simply don’t agree with you or perhaps simply don’t want to agree with you that the gorgeous women you’re dealing with have to settle for the left overs.
I think I’m just responding to the tinge of misogyny in many blog posts and comments about women of a certain age.
Perhaps I’m sensitive to it, but I feel this project is degrading these women and really rattling their confidence.
I look forward to discovering this isn’t the case.
Just quietly, perhaps the yearning for a lover isn’t worth being degraded, humiliated and accepting second best because now we’re over a certain age, we can’t expect any better.
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Kimberly June 16, 2012
Be careful about being caught in the chat cycle. You are not looking for a pen pal but a date. Some men just want a lot of women to have sexy chat with and its not going to go any further. It’s just feeding their egos. If you don’t have a set date to meet in person after a couple of weeks contact move on. Set a time limit for yourself for how much contact you are prepared to have that is not leading to a date. All this is offered up from my experience, and wishing you the best of luck on your dating journey. I am 55 y.o. & met my partner just over 2 years ago on eHarmony. We are really happy!
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Sere June 16, 2012
CALL ME NAIVE, BUT I THOUGHT THAT IF YOU STILL LOVE THE PERSON YOU ARE WITH YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM. ALSO IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE YOU WILL CONSIDER THE AMOUNT OF SEX THEY ENJOY AND GIVE IT TO THEM TO PLEASE THEM, BECAUSE YOU LOVE THEM. JUST AS YOU DO OTHER THINGS FOR THE PERSON THAT YOU LOVE TO CONSIDER THEIR NEEDS.
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Rob June 16, 2012
I’m finding my heart speeding up from reading all the juicy commentary. It sounds like there are a number of readers out their relating to some of Lou Lou’s, Astrid’s and Iris’ experiences and/or being challenged by them.
My take is that in opening themselves to serial judgement, potential rejection as well as attraction and interest from men online, as the 3 women are doing, they are intentionally stepping into the fire. And maybe their experience of fear, self-doubt, as well as fluctuations in their self-esteem might be an essential part of a much larger process in strengthening qualities like emotional resilience and self-validation… a process of tempering their self-belief, so to speak. Astrid, Lou Lou, and Iris are in the early phases of a process of social self-transformation. And it’s Bettina’s and my intention to help them make sense of the challenging emotions they will inevitably experience while helping them to positively orient themselves to a very unique and unpredictable social landscape.
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Sere June 16, 2012
I believe the rejection these women experience (especially straight after putting up a photo) will actually weaken their emotional resilience and self-validation as it is a form of ABUSE.
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Kylie J June 17, 2012
Spot on Sere. Internet dating is perhaps not the place to go if you’re a 40+ woman wanting a life affirming experience.
Sites like RSVP have an abundance of women and very few men and those men have women swamping them with attention.
I would be very interested in any dating advice that doesn’t include online dating.
Surely there are places other than RSVP to meet someone.
I just can’t agree with some of the advice being given here.
To be honest, I don’t read the Hoopla so I can walk away feeling apologetic about my age or my appearance or my life.
I won’t accept that I can’t find someone who is attractive, intelligent and eligible, and nor should these women.
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Rob June 16, 2012
Hey Sere, you should get a copy of Bettina’s book The Sex Diaries. You’ll get an in-depth sense of just how many couples, my partner and I included, struggle with negotiations over their “sex supply.” As a couple, reading Bettina’s books helped us transform how we talk about and negotiate our sexual needs together.
And working as a couple’s counsellor, I haven’t met the couple who doesn’t, in some way, struggle with mismatched desire.
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Sere June 16, 2012
I am not talking about ‘mismatched desire’, I am talking about one partner not REALLY wanting sex. I believe that when one partner does not really want to have sex with the other, it is because they are not getting on well, and have not been respecting each other and eventually they split up or just live separate lives. I bet they would want to have sex with someone else they meet who shows them love if they split up with their partner.
By the way, do you get a commission on the sale of Bettina’s books?.
I want to write a book on the excuses men make for the reasons their partner will not have sex with them. COP OUT.
This book will also have a section interviewing women on the reasons they would not have sex with their partner when they were in a committed relationship.
Nobody take this idea, it is protected by copyright. Actually if anyone gets onto it before me, do it, as I want a book like this out there to cut through all the rubbish.
I said i would be the straight talker on ‘The Hoopla’ -
Rob June 16, 2012
Hey Sere, Bettina’s already written the book you’re describing. It’s the one I mentioned. A hundred women describe intimately all the reasons they don’t want to have sex with their partners…and yes most of them still love their men
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According to research, after the honeymoon period of a relationship ends, and a couple begins to settle into their relationship, the average woman is happy with sex around 4 times a month. Where as the average man gets ‘the itch’ a bit more often…some men a lot more often.Bettina describes women with a sex drive more similar to that of a man as ‘juicy tomatoes.’ Thing is, they are a rare. And a number of the men who participate in The Sex Diaries describe the deep suffering and rejection they experience because they love their partners deeply, but would really enjoy making love with them more often.
I appreciate the enthusiasm with which you express your interesting opinions about men, women and relationships Sere. I was reading a study recently describing how men are really good at relationships with other men and women are naturally good at relationships with other women, but that both men and women equally struggle at relating to each other.
In The Dating Project, our intention is to avoid playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the opposite sex for being better or worse at relationships. We’ve all suffered in our relationships with the opposite sex; we can continue to hold onto our hurt and express it through anger at each other, or we can practice acknowledging our vulnerability ‘i.e. stepping into the fire’ and begin healing our emotional wounds.
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Sere June 17, 2012
Rob,
I am unable to respond in detail at the moment, but I cannot leave your words out in cyberspace without some response, as I like to get the truth out.
If you re-read my post on the 8th June (dating project no. 5) I said, and I quote “Men know how to relate to HUMAN BEINGS just as well as women do. They just do it in a different way.”As women are HUMAN BEINGS, it means we are both as good as each other at knowing how to relate.
Your writing makes me feel that NO man is happy, or even content in his relationship. That is very depressing. I want to read a book about men who are getting what they want, and how they are doing.
I don’t think women have had much of a voice out there to express their view on this, as men still control what is said in most of the mainstream media. And there are a lot of things that men do not want to face and hear, just as there are a lot of things that women do not want to face and hear.
For example, I heard that the first time that it was really acknowledged in the movies that women fake orgasms, was in the movie ‘When Harry Met Sally’, and that was not that long ago.
Also I want to hear from some women on this site, as I thought this would stir up a lot of comments and if it doesn’t, one of the reasons could be that women have not had much of a chance to speak about this truthfully.
I still believe that if you love and feel safe with someone you will want to have more sex with them and it shouldn’t become a big issue.
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Danala June 17, 2012
and the plain fact that around 60% of men are now overweight to obese may be a [believe me] practical reason why sex with them as they get older is no longer appealing.
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Bettina Arndt June 18, 2012
I was recently looking at some obesity figures which showed 18% of Australian males are obese compared to 17% of females. Not much difference there… People in glass houses?
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Sere June 18, 2012
I am at a loss as to why the ‘sex’ topic I brought up is getting no comments, except for a mocking one.
Or is this just a stale old topic that never really gets anywhere?
I would LOVE to hear some women’s opinions.
I bought it up because of the posts that were using the words ‘pity shag’ and ‘duty shag’.
But it doesn’t take much for me to bring up this topic.
Oh well, what ever the reason for the lack of comment on this topic I accept it.
Would love to hear from some men out there too. Promise I won’t bite.
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Sere June 18, 2012
By the way, I got ‘The Sex Diaries’ by Bettina Arndt out of the library and the stories are pretty much confirming to me what I said.
And I quote,
Monday, 10 September 2007 – Nadia’s diary” But what I did say to him last night was he doesn’t seem to try anymore. He doesn’t shave for days; the romance has all but dried up.He used to be so romantic, always thinking up new ways to say I love you, but when we collapse into bed at night and I get the hand up the leg, he gets NO because I just feel like it’s something more to give to someone else. It’s like he tries knowing that he is going to get rejected. It all seems to be a catch 22 situation. I don’t want to just feel like I am the after-thought at the end of the day.”
By the way I am not saying that it is just the man’s fault that he does not feel like considering the woman, it is a two way street.
I am just making the point of why he is not getting the sex.
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Ladylikestodance June 19, 2012
Sere
“I am talking about one partner not REALLY wanting sex”
There are many reasons why this happens even when things are going well and there is respect and love, the rejection is very hard to handle and can leave indelible scars.
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Ladylikestodance June 19, 2012
Ros, I too am traditional and want the gent to chase, but I’m not shy in sending out kisses.
The kiss is just a mechanism to get noticed.
There is very stiff competition in my age group (I’m 52), and when you consider that a gent has anything up to 1500 profiles to sift through -I figure a little wave from the crowd is a polite way of getting noticed.
I will also send kisses to gents even if I am a few years out of their parameters – what’s a few years either way?
It’s a numbers game – and you’ll never know if you never go!
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Ladylikestodance June 19, 2012
Louisa, you don’t have to pay to meet people on RSVP. I have met many lovely gents, just by sending them a kiss. Kisses are free – to email and /or chat, one must purchase stamps. Tried other sites and agree they are a mecca for the unsavoury. I find the navigational search feature and calibre of members more to my taste. Plus there is an active blogging community which I have selfishly recruited into supporting my new social life
My nic says it all.
Keen to see how our femmes progress to the first meet – it’s very exciting. I’m particularly interested in Iris’s experience as age wise I’m just a few steps behind. I wouldn’t prolong the email/chat for too long, in my experience it builds expectations and an emotional bond which may burst in 3D.
Good luck in your searches.
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Helen June 22, 2012
Sere @June 6: you will also find, if you look downwards, you have A CAPS LOCK KEY. Hitting this once will turn it off. You’re welcome.
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Dionne June 24, 2012
Any updates on how our ladies are faring?
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Astrid June 24, 2012
Wow – I am loving reading the comments, but for me these comments are so far ahead of where I am up to in this project at the moment. So far I am still working out how I feel about all of this, the rejection, the choices, the fact that I willingly put my hand up for this. Who in their right mind does that? Well I did, I knew it wouldnt be easy and deep down I knew that there wouldn’t be a plethora of eligible men blowing me away with “kisses”. But it’s one foot in front of the other as I negotiate my way through the maze – I look forward to reading more of your thoughts as the weeks go on. Fingers crossed there will be some developments soon.
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Dionne June 24, 2012
Must be a gremlin in my computer. It’s showing your home page at episode 6???
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Sere June 25, 2012
Is that right Helen? Was making a strong point. I USE CAPS FOR THAT.
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Sere June 25, 2012
Lady likes to dance,
I agree that there are other reasons, but I was talking about the times when sex is denied and nothing else is in the way.
At these time, the reason for the denial of sex, is because of the way the person feels about the way the other person is treating them in the relationship. This is often not verbalized, or the person has tried to verbalize it and just given up.
If the person complaining about the lack of sex actually listened and thought back about the different things that have been complained about throughout relationship they would have their answer, and would not be living in denial and trying to put all the blame on the other person’s libido. They would also not think that POPPING OR INVENTING A PILL was the answer. PILLS CAN BE A TOTAL COP OUT.
